1st test AUS V IND

[sanz]

Australia1, India 0. Aussies should be build a good score from here. Even though this is their last recognized batting pair, IMO Gillespies is one hell of a tail order batsman and can frustrate the batting. And if he does that I wouldn't be surprised If australian inning closes around 500.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Shaka

Warne might be the decisive factor because i don't care how good they play spin, Shane can bowl the unplayable deliveries that can break a team's back.

No one doubts that Warne has been almost unplayable when at his best... but was that ever ona slow and low pitch? My guess is that he was most unplayable when ona pitch where his deliveries spat through almost waist high and came off the pitch so sharply that batsmen had no time to react.

I didn't see Warne in Sri Lanka.. but my impression was that Warne was very, very playable: anything overpitched was dealt with fairly easily as he bowled so slowly.. anything underpitched was dealt with fairly easily because the ball just came off slow and low and allowed time to react.

I expect Warne to tie people down by being spectacularly accurate.. and reckon he'll have to do that in order to avoid getting murdered.. but if he gets a stack of wickets (as he did in Sri anka) then (as in Sri Lanka) I suspect that far from being blameless having faced unplayable deliveries... the batsmen will all have contributed to their own downfall.

Should be interesting to see how Lehman does with the ball though: on this pitch I reckon he might actualy be more of a handful than Warne if he can find his rhythm.

[fair_&_balance]

Originally Posted by Rachael

I didn't see Warne in Sri Lanka.. but my impression was that Warne was very, very playable: anything overpitched was dealt with fairly easily as he bowled so slowly.. anything underpitched was dealt with fairly easily because the ball just came off slow and low and allowed time to react.

How did he got those 27 wickets in 3 tests then??

[Shaka]

Originally Posted by Rachael

No one doubts that Warne has been almost unplayable when at his best... but was that ever ona slow and low pitch?

Hmmm...well I saw him taking a bagful of wickets in Pakistan, but on reflection that was when half the senior players dropped out of the team after one of the regular team spats. he was bowling to a bunch of untried kids who didn't have a clue. Yes, India and Sri lankan batsmen are a different proposition I guess. He does turn the leggie a fair way though and his dipper consistently got the Pak youngsters trapped...though again that doesn't mean much. I think i could have bowled that lot out.

We'll see tomorrow I guess!

[fair_&_balance]

Originally Posted by Shaka

Hmmm...well I saw him taking a bagful of wickets in Pakistan, but on reflection that was when half the senior players dropped out of the team after one of the regular team spats. he was bowling to a bunch of untried kids who didn't have a clue.

Well this thing always puzzled me. Warne has done brilliantly in both pakistan and Sri Lanka and did poorly in India.Even if you take out that last series of Pakistan when they played newbies in that series he still did very good.

I remember when he was there with Mark Taylors team He got bagful of wicket. Story is same in Sri Lanka. But In India he struggled so much. And I dont believe that there ia huge difference between how Indian play spinner and how Sri Lankan & Pakistani do.Indians are slightly better but Warne statistics is just horrible.He never had even a 5 wkt haul against India.

v India               11  514.1  1608  29  4/47   6/113  55.44  3.12 106.3  0  0
v Pakistan            12  550.4  1414  76  7/23  11/77   18.60  2.56  43.4  6  2
v Sri Lanka           13  527.5  1507  59  5/43  10/155  25.54  2.85  53.6  5  2

in India               6  319.1  1045  20  4/47   5/107  52.25  3.27  95.7  0  0
in Pakistan            3  181.4   504  18  6/136  9/240  28.00  2.77  60.5  2  0
in Sri Lanka           9  317.2   982  48  7/94  11/188  20.45  3.09  39.6  6  3

[Zainub]

One has to feel for you Racheal, you missed out on some great test match cricket having missed that Aus-Sri Lanka series earlier in the year. The fact that you didn't see Warnie bowl then I would say does have a lot to do with your opinions of Warnie.

Point 1 is that yes, sometimes you get wickets with balls that are by no means unplayable, and as you say the wicket is more a result of the batsman contributing to their own downfall BUT does that take anything away from the bowler him self? No, I don't think so. When you are getting people like Jayaweredene, Sangakkara, Atapatu, Jayasuriya, Dilshan and co playing bad shots on pithces the learned to play their cricket on, when you are tempting them do make a mistake playing what are regulation bread and butter strokes, you have to be well, not neccessarily "unplayable" but it has to be categorised as "bowling well" even in the least appreciative of terms. There is possibly no way one cannot give credit to Warne for how he bowled in Sri Lanka, not at least in my dictionary.

Point 2 is that he did bowl some jaffas that were virtually unplayable. His wrong one was effective, but his main weapon through out remained the orthodox leg spinner, while Murali on the other hand was obssessed with over bowling his controversial doosra Warnie continued to do what he does best - bowl classical leg spin- and the good willy old customer he is he bowled Aus to a record test victory.

There is something distinct about the sight of seeing Shane Kieth Warne bowl - I can neve get tired of it.

[Shaka]

Actually it's a fallacy that Pakistan's players are good against spin, or at least leg spin. When the seniors dropped out of the series against Australia, young Hasan Raza was drafted in on account of being a good player of spin...and he proceeded to play it very well making two fighting 50's! For the last few years only Inzimam and Youhanna have been comfortable, which is why in the Pak/SL thread I mentioned how well Shoaib Malik played the leg spin - it came as a surprise. I never knew he had such a good record against SL either.

[sanz]

Originally Posted by fair_&_balance

Well this thing always puzzled me. Warne has done brilliantly in both pakistan and Sri Lanka and did poorly in India.Even if you take out that last series of Pakistan when they played newbies in that series he still did very good.

I remember when he was there with Mark Taylors team He got bagful of wicket. Story is same in Sri Lanka. But In India he struggled so much. And I dont believe that there ia huge difference between how Indian play spinner and how Sri Lankan & Pakistani do.Indians are slightly better but Warne statistics is just horrible.He never had even a 5 wkt haul against India.

Warnie has not done well against India because on the tours prior to 2001 India had players like Sidhu, Azhar who were excellent against spin. not to forget the fact that australia never had a potent attack on Indian tours (barring 2000-2001) and that put extra burden on Wanie. In 2001 he had the opportunity to succeed but then something very very special (VVS) happened @ Calcutta and the rest is history.

Warnie has succeeded against Pakistan because Pakistani batsmen(with all due respect) are weak against quality bowling (with few exceptions like Javed, Yohana etc).

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi

When you are getting people like Jayaweredene, Sangakkara, Atapatu, Jayasuriya, Dilshan and co playing bad shots on pithces the learned to play their cricket on, when you are tempting them do make a mistake playing what are regulation bread and butter strokes, you have to be well, not neccessarily "unplayable" but it has to be categorised as "bowling well" even in the least appreciative of terms. There is possibly no way one cannot give credit to Warne for how he bowled in Sri Lanka, not at least in my dictionary.

I was giving Warne lots of credit, Zainub: I think he's a truly sensational bowler. That said.. the point about his performance in Sri Lanka (from all I here).. was that he was relentlessly accurate.. strangling batsmen who (for all their talent) are unused to being stifled.. adn who proved incapable of coping with the pressure.

People get too carried away with the turn Warne gets.. and with his variations.. and with the notion that he's unplayable: on sub continetal wickets he's not that much more than a mean stock bowler against whom the sublime likes of Laxman can settle a play their shots (gloriously).. nd the competent (Dravid, Tendulkar, etc) can potter on comfortably.

There's nothing wrong, in my book, with boring them out though :-)

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi

Point 2 is that he did bowl some jaffas that were virtually unplayable. His wrong one was effective, but his main weapon through out remained the orthodox leg spinner, while Murali on the other hand was obssessed with over bowling his controversial doosra Warnie continued to do what he does best - bowl classical leg spin- and the good willy old customer he is he bowled Aus to a record test victory.

Warne is experienced to know that every variationhe tries is going to increase his error count.. and release pressure. Muirali, by contrast, pushes the ball through quickly.. and therefore has staks more margin for error anyway... and so has every reason to try everything in the book. I think you'd see the roles reversed completely in Australia.. where Warne would find pitches responsive to his ful box of tricks and Murali would have to be relentlessly accurate because (bowling fast and flat on greener wickets) he would be unable to get as much turn.

[Zainub]

I think this is my only point of disagreement with you here.

Originally Posted by Rachael

People get too carried away with the turn Warne gets.. and with his variations.. and with the notion that he's unplayable: on sub continetal wickets he's not that much more than a mean stock bowler against whom the sublime likes of Laxman can settle a play their shots (gloriously).. nd the competent (Dravid, Tendulkar, etc) can potter on comfortably. There's nothing wrong, in my book, with boring them out though :-)

"People get too carried away with the turn Warne gets.. and with his variations.. and with the notion that he's unplayable"

It is difficult not to get carried : he's that kind of a bowler, he does excite you, with almost everything he does, even his off the field antics, he's the world's and may be even the games' history's stupidest bowler in that respect but his bowling compensates for it , I feel. I think it's natural, if you are a real die hard fan of leg spin bowling you can't help but be excited by his bowling.

"on sub continental wickets he's not that much more than a mean stock bowler against whom the sublike likes of Laxman can settle a play their shots (gloriously) nd the competent (Dravid, Tendulkar, etc) can potter on comfortabhly."

That's been debated on for such a long time. I think it's unfair on a bowler of his quality to label him as a 'stock bowler' on sub contienental wickets, considering he has a record that speaks for it self apart from in India of coarse. His past series in India, as some one has already pointed out was played with him shouldering the bowling attack almost single handedly, now though he has the likes of Gellespi and Kasprowikz to fall back on, Aus now also have much greater depth in the spin bowling resources with Clarke, Kartich and Lehman all being a handful in their own rights. It's way to early to predict another fairlure one feels considering he has a repuatation of answering his critics, and I'm sure he will do much better in India this time then before. This is certainly his best chance.