Vaughn versus Ponting "head to head"

[Ernest]

Interesting post acker, vaughan has not got that good a deal in Test cricket to lose, he has been out of sorts in both formats.

Originally Posted by acker

Would you risk Vaughan being phycologically shattered if he was dropped from the one dayers

To be honest yes, he has had a lot of succsess at Test level as captain, but has been poor in the one day stuff, I see where you are coming from, but if his form is so poor in one dayers, and his captaincy, I would take the risk.

Originally Posted by acker

On the up side it would provide the opportunity for someone like Trescothwick or Flintoff to be tested in a captaincy role

I think Vaughan will be captain come July, I think Trescothick could do a job, interesting one about Flintoff, I myself would not put that burden on him, a good comparason is Ian Botham, he made a poor captain, but as soon as he was relieved of it in 1981, his form returned with a vengance.
We all think Flintoff would make a poor captain, I wonder???.

[Chuck Palumbo]

Well you can't drop Vaughan from the ODI side because after Pieterson and Flintoff, he has been our best batsman in ODIs in the last few months.

In the last 15 games he has an average of 50.81.
Compare this to other batsman in the England ODI team during the same period:

Andrew Strauss- 23.83
Marcus Trescothick-28.80
Paul Collingwood-24.10
Vikram Solanki-31.42

Can we really advocate dropping him from the side when he is one of our form batsman?

[Ernest]

Yes Chuck, but think how poor England have performed as a whole at one day level, we are pretty poor, so poor in fact we had to bring Flintoff in against the Windies last year, when injured, just to give the side backbone.

And when we got beat with the West Indies in the ICCC Trophy last year in the final, the game was allowed to drift, if my memory serves me right, Giles never got a bowl, uninspiring cricket, my fear such ways will be brought into the Test team.

[acker]

Would you still hold the same veiw about Flintoff if he was playing for a different country or one that had not previously experienced the "Botham captaincy"
Remember Imran Khan was an allrounder who captained Pakistan pretty well, and Ritchie Benaud is fondly remembered as one Australias greatest captain's.
Are you stereotyping Flintoff a bit ?

[Chuck Palumbo]

In my view, the captain is only as good as the players around him and during last years Natwest series, some of the players picked(Clarke, Mcgrath, Blackwell) were not of international class so really Vaughan was playing with lost cases, he couldn't do nothing to prevent our failiure as captain.

During that ICCCT final, if I remember correctly, the light was fading and Vaughan probably thought that it was better continuing with the fast or medium pace bowlers. He went with his gut instinct and it didn't pay off, on any other day, Harmison and Flintoff would have mopped up the tail and we would be speaking of a great England triumph but it was WI day..the 50/50 decisions went their way and they got home.

Lets not forget, as captain, Vaughan has led us to many good ODI series victories. We have beaten Pakistan(2-1) SA and Zim(Natwest series 2003) and India(2-1) in series. We have also got to the final of a major competition and on the way beaten the No.1 and 2 ODI sides(Australia and SL) comprehensively. His captaincy has been by no means a disaster and I think he should be given more time.

[Ernest]

No one knows wheather Flintoff would make a good captain, but as yet the job is not vacant.

I dont think you can compare Flintoff with Ritchie Benaud, who I think had a much more level head, Imran Khan is a fair comparason, I just dont know.

But after the Ian Botham experiment that went wonky to say the least, maybe I am stereotyping Flintoff a bit, "fair comment".

[acker]

Ponting's probably got a few more problems than Vaughan on the captaincy front. With a willing and very eager replacement Gilchrist in the same team.
Gilly's "my players" quote after clinching the Indian test series while Ponting was injured, I suggest would still play on Ricky's mind.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Chuck Palumbo

In my view, the captain is only as good as the players around him and during last years Natwest series, some of the players picked(Clarke, Mcgrath, Blackwell) were not of international class so really Vaughan was playing with lost cases, he couldn't do nothing to prevent our failiure as captain.

Correct me if I am wrong Chuck, but has Vaughan no say in the selection of a one day team in England, because.
1) I agree he had nothing to captain.
2) If he had a say, he should have put a veto on these players at this level.

Originally Posted by Chuck Palumbo

During that ICCCT final, if I remember correctly, the light was fading and Vaughan probably thought that it was better continuing with the fast or medium pace bowlers. He went with his gut instinct and it didn't pay off, on any other day, Harmison and Flintoff would have mopped up the tail and we would be speaking of a great England triumph but it was WI day..the 50/50 decisions went their way and they got home.

I think are maybe being a little generous here, the reason I say that is with several overs to go, you could sence England were going to lose, I think the cricketing world was astounded, he did not give Giles a chance at the latter stages, there was an inevitabilaty about that defeat the way things were to my mind drifting.

Originally Posted by Chuck Palumbo

His captaincy has been by no means a disaster and I think he should be given more time.

I don't mind giving vaughan more time as such, my problem has always been, the two formats don't mix, and Englands recent one day form has been poor, I just don't like Vaughan the England Test captain, being tainted with failure.

[Leafy Seadragon]

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi

I think it will be more relevant to compare their batting stats since they've been captain. Both Punter and Virgil average significantly lesser playing as captain then they do as a non-captaining player

Zainub, actually not correct. Punter avarages marginally less (54.64 V 55.78), Vaughan considerably (44.2 V 35.95).

[Leafy Seadragon]

I'm not sure that either are good captains. Ponting and Vaughan both appear to have been guilty of letting games drift when they needed to make things happen. In some respects possibly a little more forgivable in Punter's given that someone usually steps up from the Aussie team, but on a few occasions he has let games drift almost expecting it to happen. I cn't comment in Vaughan's case, but strategically I think Warnie & Gilchrist are both better captains. Maybe there's other things Ponting does that contributes as captain that aren't so obvious to me such as motivation, etc, but on face value I'm not sure he's even the best captain in the Aussie team.