Was Steve Waugh the Best Australian Captain or the Captain of the Best Australian Sid

[Aussie-Yank]

I wanted to know your opinions on this subject as looking at Steve's record as captain of Australia in Tests;

Played 57 Matches for 41 Victories, 9 Loses and 7 draws.

Statistically the best of any captain, but was itthe team or his captaining skills?

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Aussie-Yank

I wanted to know your opinions on this subject as looking at Steve's record as captain of Australia in Tests;

Played 57 Matches for 41 Victories, 9 Loses and 7 draws.

Statistically the best of any captain, but was itthe team or his captaining skills?

Difficult to say. He was certainly the captain of the best side. It is not hard being a captain when your choice of openeing bowlers is McGrath and Gillespie, and your spinner is Shane Warne!! Meanwhile, you have Gilchrist at No7!!

It does mean it is very difficult then to judge hwo good he would have been had he had two lesser bowlers and an average spinner.

[Maranello]

He was neither. The best Australian team was Bradman's Invincibles as they were tested again and again against tough opponents and came up trumps - Waugh's team may have been that good, but was it ever tested to that extent? Sadly, no.

The best captain was probably Chapelli. Waugh was very good as a captain, great as a batsman, but even Mark Taylor was probably a better skipper. His record is so good because he had three all-time World XI contenders in his side: Warne, Gilchrist and McGrath, and the rest of the team was very good too. However, another very important reason was the lack of quality in the opposition - none of the other teams were remotely good, even as competitors. South Africa tried briefly, but were a few key players short; England had severe problems and the West Indies were in terminal decline.

As noted elsewhere on this forum, the English team of the late 70s and early 80s is probably as good, if not better, than the current side. However, the current side is the undisputed world no.2, whereas the previous was certainly not. Doesn't take anything away from Australia's current brilliance or England's resurgence, but the sheer lack of quality in all the other nations makes this a very lopsided debate

[greg]

His win ratio may be the best but how many of those wins were achieved before lunch on day 4?I would doubt Bradman's team as good as they were won many games that quickly as they were being tested in nearly every game.

Waugh has captained a great team in an era with fewer great teams in opposition.Every time they played South Africa who were easily the 2nd best side they would roll over and die against Waugh's Aussies.Having said that i would far rather watch the Australian's of the last 12 years than the West Indies of the 70's and 80's because in Warne they have variety to make it more interesting.

[Seamer]

This one has to go down to opinion. Firstly, Steve Waugh, well, he was certainly a fearless captain and was never afraid of risking a loss to achieve a win. This tactic certainly won him a lot of games that he would'nt of otherwise but also led to his most famous loss in India which subsequently led to losing the series. He was a fearless captain and led by example, but was tactically limited and lacked imagination. He had the advantage of a young McGrath, Warne and co which is the main reasin of his statistical success. You can afford to be aggresive with those guys.
The best captain Australia has had is Mark Taylor in my opinion. Not only was he an aggresive captain, but had had imagination, intuition and was tactically brilliant. His captaincy spanned the best years of Warne's career which contributed to his success it must be said though.

[R W S]

If you arrange those to have captained in 12 or more Tests by win % then the list runs as follows: RT Ponting, SR Waugh, DG Bradman, MP Vaughan, WG Grace.

[Seamer]

Interesting trivia RWS. The captains on that list all had strong teams under them which is why their percentages are so high. It can not be a fair indication of captaincy ability though as there have been some brilliant captains with very average teams under them. Fleming from NZ comes to mind.
I often wonder how Ponting would have fared if he had an weak team under him. Would struggle i suspect.

[greg]

Originally Posted by Seamer

Interesting trivia RWS. The captains on that list all had strong teams under them which is why their percentages are so high. It can not be a fair indication of captaincy ability though as there have been some brilliant captains with very average teams under them. Fleming from NZ comes to mind.

AB comes to mind for Australia,rebuilding your worst ever team and sending them on the way to greatness.

[Aussie-Yank]

Would have to agree with you Greg, besides AB being my favourite Australian Captain he took over from Kym Hughes in an era that was Australia's worst.

[Aussie-Yank]

Originally Posted by Seamer

This one has to go down to opinion. Firstly, Steve Waugh, well, he was certainly a fearless captain and was never afraid of risking a loss to achieve a win. This tactic certainly won him a lot of games that he would'nt of otherwise but also led to his most famous loss in India which subsequently led to losing the series. He was a fearless captain and led by example, but was tactically limited and lacked imagination. He had the advantage of a young McGrath, Warne and co which is the main reasin of his statistical success. You can afford to be aggresive with those guys.
The best captain Australia has had is Mark Taylor in my opinion. Not only was he an aggresive captain, but had had imagination, intuition and was tactically brilliant. His captaincy spanned the best years of Warne's career which contributed to his success it must be said though.

As you poit out Seamer, I think it does come down to ones own opinion. Steve Waugh certainly risked losing tests to try and win them - IMO due to his passion to win and his proudness of playing for Australia - Which would bring his percentage up. But as you state, when you have the players he could pick to attack the competition, why wouldn't you. But I don't think he lacked imagination, he certainly studied video tapes of oposition batting and then designed field placings to exploit preceved weaknesses.

IMO, Alan Border was the best captain. He won with a team building up from the loss of players such as Lillee, Chappell, Marsh, Thompson, Dyson and others. He got Australia from losing games to drawing them. Then got them to start winning them. He was the one responsible for the platform for the other captains to work from.