Ponting Scathing at England's use of substitutes.

[Cliff-UK]

Below is a quote from today's The Age - Melbourne's hefty newspaper... it says
" AUSTRALIA has succeeded in forcing the contentious issue of substitute fielders before the International Cricket Council, which will look at current rules with Test captains and elite umpires in Australia before the ICC Super Series in October....
...."I think it is an absolute disgrace the spirit of the game is being treated like that," Ponting said...
...Glenn McGrath has joined the Australian chorus of condemnation regarding England's tactics, which the tourists believe are designed specifically to refresh bowlers before spells.
"The only time you should go off during a Test match is obviously if you need to go off for an injury or pop off for a quick toilet break — that's it," McGrath said, also on Australian radio. "Test cricket to us is played by the guys who are in the team."

[Sean Beynon]

Lets take them in turn ...

• Dispute umpires' decisions

Ponting talking to umpires after Strauss catch was claimed by Clarke at TB.
Lee's reaction to not getting the lbw against Hoggard at TB 2nd innings.
Warne - whenever he doesn't get an lbw it seems.
Katich.

• Use abusive language to an opponent or umpire

Katich.
Ponting.

• Appealing when you know a batsman is not out

Can't say for definite - although Bell, Pieterson at Lord's were given out to 'catches' when they had not hit the ball. Could be honest mistakes though.

• Advancing towards an umpire aggressively when appealing

Warne from slip with Lee's leg before appeal to Hoggard springs to mind.

• Distracting an opponent verbally or by harassment

Can't say for certain.

Hardly paragons of virtue are they, but at least they just use Brad Hodge as their sub fielders, unlike those cheating Poms.

[Cliff-UK]

Originally Posted by Harmy's Army

This "Spirit of the Game" jibing by Ponting is looking looks more anorexic than thin in the context of the charter signed up to by the Aussie players. Lets have a look at the key points.

this whole debate - i mean the one orchestrated by the aussies, not our clearly highly cerebral one about theirs, is utter rubbish. but it doesgo to showthey ar in total disarray and wewill probably beat em by an innings next time. i thin kreal aussie cricket fans will be very worried that their team is "fiddling while Rome burns"

[Ninjaman]

Ponting's concerns are actually valid.

The way subs have been used by England is not new at all.

It is the manner of his protest and timing that makes it bad.

I'm not even going to bother going through the "spirit of the game" argument as BOTH sides have contravened some of the things mentioned above recently and over the years man many times.

How Ponting has kept going on about it is disaapointing and the fact it really would not be an issue if they were 4-0, 3-0 or even 2-1 up is pretty obvious.

However, it doesn't detract from the fact that the way England have been using subs is underhand, even if not illegal.

The stench of hypocrisy for the Aussies is there, but I am certain had this been an English tour of Pakistan, for example, and the shoe was on the other foot with Vaughan highlighting the issue, I doubt he would be castigated by many on here as a whinger.

[Cliff-UK]

guess will just have to respectfully disagree. It's been part of cricket for too long. I don't think it's underhand. It's fair and a manifestation of professionalism. Why shouldn't a substitute bye of the highest possible standard - test cricket is supposed to be the showpiece for cricket talent. And isn't it about excellence and entertainment?

Aussies are getting their excuses in early. I would be dismayed if England whinged like this. I have been dismayed by the odd bleat during a Pakistan tour in the past.

[Redpeckham]

I love it when an Aussie whingies, they do it better than anyone, they make it sound so reasonable Ricky is brilliant at it. I don't think great Aussie captains like steve Waugh or Alan Border would or even could whinge like Ricky if their mother's life depended on it!

[Aussie-Yank]

Firstly I want to say that I would disagree with how Ponting has handled this affair. There are two issues involved in this argument and that is the players coming onto the field have not been selected by England in the squad they announced before the Ashes started and the reason the players on the field are coming off for. So after reading the previous posts I think a few things need to be pointed out.

1. The question of using the subs the way England have used them was not first raised after this test match. The first time it was raised was before a ball was even bowled. The second time it was raised was during the one day series. The third time was in the previous tests and this is the fourth time.

2. This is not the first time the question of the use of subs has come about. Mike Brearly, in 1981 I believe, complained about Dennis Lillee going off the ground every time he finnished a spell to go have a quick shower and change his shirt. This was not called whinging by the Poms then, it was called "against the spirit of the game". As there was no rule in place to prevent the Aussie's from doing this.

3. Ponting has stated that England have broken no rules, that it is a complaint in regards to the issue of the "spirit of the game". The same argument made by Mike Brearly.

4. A 5 minute rub down (if thats in fact what they are getting as we are just assuming what happens) by good physio's would do alot in getting a bit more out of the bowlers.

5. The fact that it was Pratt (Not named in the England Squad) who was fielding is the issue, the red herring is the fact he was run out by him.

So in my opinion what is the point in naming a squad of players for the Ashes, if only 11 of them are going to be used. England named a squad as did Australia, they are the players representing there country to play in this series. So when teams use a player outside these players just for fielding to me contradicts the spirit of the game, this is hightened more so if in fact the player is going off the field to receive a benefit other than a toilet break or an injury.

If Collingwood was named in the squad, but Tremlett was named 12th I would have and I am sure Ponting would have no problem Collingwood coming onto the field to field for an injured player. But there would be an issue if Collingwood was on the field becuase Jones was off the field getting a rub down by Physio's so he could come back stronger in his next bowling spell.

[Sean Beynon]

1. Fair enough - it is a legitimate concern. It's not one I agree with necessarily, but it's legitimate.

2. Again fine - nobody is worried that the Aussies are concerned - more that they have manifested their concerns by:
a) Ponting's outburst on the field
b) Ponting on the radio
c) McGrath on the radio.

3. Australia have, as has been explored earlier, not adheered to their own charter which supposedly ensures the spirit of the game is kept.

4. Perhaps.

5. This has no relevance whatsoever. There is no impediment on Australia adding to their squad at will. Substitute fielders are. and have been for a long time, drawn from players representing counties not in competitive action during the Test match. So, for the last game, we saw Warwickshire and Durham fielders. Lots of other sides do it - South Africa most certainly do.

[Beny]

he he. point taken. but it's so much part ofthe aussie consciousness. is it not?

I dont acctualy know anybody who remembers it.

2. Again fine - nobody is worried that the Aussies are concerned - more that they have manifested their concerns by:
a) Ponting's outburst on the field
b) Ponting on the radio
c) McGrath on the radio.

They only went on radio to explain why Ponting had the outburst in the first place... As A-Y points out, this issue had been raised many times before.

"Being here in England they've obviously got the resources to just draft in the best fieldsmen that they possibly can at the time. The way they've been doing it is just before their bowlers are about to bowl they'll send them off for a short amount of time to have a bit of a loosen-up and a massage and that sort of stuff, and come back on and bowl. As soon as they've finished their spell they'll do exactly the same thing. It's within the rules of the game but it's just not within the spirit of the game, which is what we're all trying to uphold."

I agree with this... Sort of.

And Glenn McGrath, who had to sit out the match with an elbow injury, backed his captain. "The only time you should go off during a Test match is obviously if you need to go off for an injury or pop off for a quick toilet break. That's it. Test cricket to us is played by the guys who are in the team. If you are not fit enough or you are looking at ways to keep your players fresh, I think that's not quite in the spirit of the game. As a player myself, I'd keep playing. You would have to drag me off the field."

[Zainub]

I'm with Ponting on this one. The rules need to be changed.