Will Ponting beat Waugh's consecutive test wins record

[engssmoothcriminal]

Originally Posted by Aurelius

Actually, that was Gilchrist who won the series in India; Ponting only captained in the final game which we lost, with that notorious broken pitch.

Sorry moment of mental block although I would definitely argue that Ponting sitting on the sidelines had far more influence over the side than Buchanan. Probably should have put "Ponting's team" instead as Gilly continued to successfully implimented his subcontinental strategy and pre-aranaged field settings that worked so well in the Sri Lankan whitewash prior to said Indian tour.

Waugh seems to have escaped with remarkably little punishment for the collosal ****-up with the follow-on. But I don't judge Ponting's leadership entirely on the Ashes- that example I mentioned with Oram was before the Ashes. As I say (or think I said), I think Ponting's gotten better since then.

Ditto but sadly a hell of a lot of people (sorry wasn't including you in my lazy generalising ) seem to do which as I said seems a whopping double standard given how most of those people are prepared to right off Waugh's main abhoration as a captain as just a freak result caused by brilliant cricket by India. Whereas an Ashes loss against an argueably much better England side is written off by some quite high profile individuals as tactical incompetence by Ponting.

However, the question I was responding to was "is Ponting a better captain than Waugh?" And I say no, because on balance, I consider someone who's generally aggressive when the chips are down, and who maintains an "ice-man" demeanour in a crisis, to be the superior captain.

Fair enough and I 'm in full agreement with you. I was just pointing out that both have different strengths (and weaknesses) that suit different types of conditions and match scenarios. Most people would consider Michael Vaughan as a vastly superior captain to Nasser Hussain but looking ahead to this series in Sri Lanka I'd rather have the guy who Waugh made something of a muppet of in charge to grind things out than a more innovative laid back individual like Vaughan. Horses for courses and all that.

Actually, the man who I consider to be the best captain in Australia is Tasmania's Daniel Marsh, son of Rodney. He always maintains aggressive field placings, and resists the urge (which many captains are unable to do) to save singles when it won't do him any good.

Well he always struck me as a good hard working professional during his stint with Leicestershire a few years back so that doesn't really surprise me. Always baffled me why no other county came in for him.


(Oh and I promise never to use "sexy" in a cricketing context ever again. You watch enough Mark Nicholas drooling over KP and these things are bound to inadvertently slip into your vocabulary )

[Warne]

I have mentioned before, Australia lost that series because of 4 factors:

1. Adam Gilchrist not firing

2. Andrew Flintoff enjoying the form of his life.

3. Simon Jones(the most least mentioned factor)

4. Simon Katich playing instead of Mike Hussey.

If either of those 4 factors were not there, Australia won't have lost the Ashes. Still if it were not for Kasprowicz aiming blindly at a rank bad ball at Edgbaston or McGrath trodding on that ball(he'd have eaten England up, the kind of momentum he had, still can't forget that Lord's spell)) or Warney dropping Pietersen at Oval, Australia would have won the series. So, we can conclude,

England playing their best cricket in recent memory + loads of luck = narrow series win(both the matches England won were nail-biters.

England a much better team in that series? You were probably watching another series!!

Of course, the 5-0 spanking tasted all that better because of that loss.

[engssmoothcriminal]

Originally Posted by Warne

England a much better team in that series? You were probably watching another series!!

Probably should have made it a tad clearer. "Whereas an Ashes loss against an argueably much better England side.............than the Indian side of 2001"

[Seamer]

Originally Posted by Warne

England a much better team in that series? You were probably watching another series!!

Gee i don't know Warne - i reckon England were the better side.

Yes the games they won were close, but by the same token, Australia only secured the draw at Old Trafford by the skin of their teeth too.

Australia did not have the bowlers in June 2005. Gillespie was past it, as was Kasprowicz and Bichel. Bracken was not ready (though i reckon he is a must for our tour there in 2009) and neither was Tait or Johnson. McGrath's injury highlighted our lack of bowling depth at that time, and as a result, England were stronger. And Kattitch was a total dead loss and i am glad to see the back of him.

England were the best and desreved the win. But what really annoyed me about that series was the final test where the crowd and English players were putting pressure on the umpires to offer the English basmen bad light. Unsporting in my opinion.

Still, Australia had not lost a test for years before that series, and have not lost one since

[acker]

Originally Posted by Aurelius

No, he isn't. I heard that Ponting's quite a good motivator, and he's a competent strategist. However, he has two serious faults.

Whenever the opposition starts going along nicely and is attcking, Ponting goes on the defensive. Example- when Jacob Oram made that century in Brisbane, he didn't try to get him out. Rather he put everyone on the boundary and tried to get him off strike to have a crack at Vettori- a strategy that didn't work.

Another example- Adelaide last year. Ian Bell comes to the crease, immediately lofts Warne over mid off for four. What does Ponting do? Drops the mid off down to a long off, to a batsman fresh to the crease. A more aggressive captain would have kept him up and tried to encourage him to go over the top again- but he took the defensive option.

His second fault is that whenever it looks like crunch time- especially in ODIs- he just looks really worried. Check for yourself next time. His body language and demeanor is nowhere near as good as Waugh's was.

And you seem to completely overlook the fact that, Ponting has a history of learning and correcting his previous mistakes/inadequacies.

From his first test inning's over exuberant and out for 99 and his nightclub incident, he got over them knuckled down and learned.

And he is still bouncing around as probably the best current batsman in the world consistently over a 5 year period, across all forms of the game.

In fact the way that he and Gilchrist handled and put the fear of god into Andrew Symond's during the last Ashes tour of England was about as tough and effective handling of a player indescretion as you can get.

And the fact that player has learnt and evolved from that brutally frank discussion is a credit to both Ponting's and Gilly's man management skill's

[Aurelius]

Jeez, Acker, I hope I didn't offend you!

Seriously, though, all I said was that I didn't think that he was quite as good as Waugh because of his more defensive tendencies and by the way he sometimes loses his cool a bit in a crunch time. If you don't agree with me, fine; let's just agree to disagree.

In fact the way that he and Gilchrist handled and put the fear of god into Andrew Symond's during the last Ashes tour of England was about as tough and effective handling of a player indescretion as you can get.

And the fact that player has leant and evolved from that brutally frank discussion is a credit to both Ponting's and Gilly's man managment skill's

As I said right from the start. His man-management/motivation skills seem to be of very high standard, in fact it's probably the best aspect of his captaincy.

[acker]

No offense taken, just love a vibrant discussion with someone else that cares.

I just think the Australian cricket team, through no fault of Ponting's or Gilchrist's has become a colder more professional place than it was in the day of Waugh.

The reason seems to be more because of fans expectations rather than cricketers expectations.

Even more remarkable in our diverse multicultural society we call modern day Australia. When talking to people of various cultural heritages.

Adam Gilchrist seems to be the type of guy who will likely to be invited and probably go to everything from the end of Ramadan feast through to the Chinese New Year celebrations.

But with the adulation comes the expectation. From more people.

A lot of people now love these guy's there fame is even now bigger than in Waugh's day. They are now starting to turn into a cricket version of Brazil in soccer.

[Warne]

One factor that is noticeable under Ponting's regime is the fact that, as has already been mentioned, Brett Lee looks a completely different bowler. Ponting just somehow brings the best out of his bowlers. I am convinced Australia won't have lost the series in India had Ponting been at the helm.

[EllN]

I have to say ponting, if he achevies it will also be able to say, "We can still win with out the Warnes and Mcgraths" because he will be the first captain to really achived anything (if it is done and this is only to an extent) without mcgrath and warne since allan border which is quiet a feat. Though i do have to say that teams such as west indies and newzeland,and india and pakistan have declined since ponting took over, where as Waugh was still pitting hs wits against curtly and courtney, waqar and wasim and Lara's ad tendulakars when they were in there prime. So even though i do think poniting will achive it, i thinkwaugh was a better captian

[south beds mikey]

Is there a match at Adelaide? This could be a decisive factor as it is still very flat. Even last year whilst oz beat us there, they did not take 20 wickets and if Dravid, Tendulkar et al get in on that pitch that might be the stumbling block. Otherewise, weather apart, they are playing to such a hugely high standard I can't (much as it pains me to say it) see anyone stopping them.