Who Will Win

[CJ D]

Nobody said England are a very good team (only Australia are a very good team) - they are a competitive side with substantial potential for improvement.

They are about as good as India, Pakistan and New Zealand, any test series between these 4 teams has the potential to be won by either side.

India are not all powerful - a good result against the Aussies does not make them a great team - just a very average one that had a couple of really good results.

[cantplaycantalk]

A couple of good results against a seriously weakened Aus team.

India has a very weak bowling attack. Generally you can gloss over that for one dayers.
I would suggest just ignoring Vinoth in future, reason, logic, common sense, facts etc make no impact on him.
I have tried to counter his ranting with facts and figures, reasoned arguments etc. No effect he just continues to talk rubbish.

It is a pity because I thought we had left that behind with the idiots on the BBC Asia board.

[Rachael]

India might well have turned the corner now with Khan, Nehra and Pathan in support of Kumble as a basic four man attack... and if Harbajan manages to stage a come-back (or they find another top quality spinner) then the attack will not look too desperate. The truth remains, however, that it is just too soon to say: Khan is good, but not outstanding. The other seamers are promising, but no more. Kumble, right now, lacks quality support: things ain't THAT great.

To compound their problems, India are still producing middle order (ODI style) batsmen instead of openers. A 3-4-5-6 that reads Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Laxman is great (though I doubt Laxman will ever really produce on a genuine bowler's wicket with a lot of sideways movement)... and Yuvraj Singh is a decent reserve. Sehwag looks like another middle order batsman rather than an opener... and Chopra still has a fair bit to prove.

Patel looks promising as a keeper.. but he's barely out of nappies: he will not be the finished article for at least another 7-8 years. Quite why India went with such a young gloveman I don't know: maybe they wanted one guy to represent his country for 20+ years!

I do actually like Ganguly: he is the obvious captain from amongst the current team.. but he's no Flemming: the Indian team does not strike me as greater than the sum of its parts in the way that the New Zealand team does.

Personally I'd have South Africa and New Zealand as joint 2nd in the world right now... but with reservations as neither can field 2 quality spinners. The rest strike me as even further behind Australia: capable of performing on their day... and not easy to beat at home... but a long way from the finished article.

[Rachael]

Oh.. on the PWC world ratings: Nehra is 57th with 297 (down from his lowly best of 395) and Pathan is 58th with 290 (close to his lowly best of 293). These ratings may be a little hard on them as they are young.. but the fact is they remain rated only just above Vasbert Drakes, Adam Sanford and Douglas Hondo - not great.

Argakar is doing better on 347 (down from a high of 421) but even he is just 47th in the world, below Sanath Jayasuria, Pedro Collins, Mashrafe bin Mortaza and Dilhara Fernando.

Khan stands head and shoulders above the others.. and I admire him immensely.. but he's in danger of dropping out of the world top 20.... and his rating of 574 (down from a best of 657) isn't that much better than the rating of Mervyn Dillon (539, down from 692) and is hundreds of points down from (for example) Makhaya Ntini.

Kumble is looking good: 8th in the world with a rating of 737... a long way behind Murali and down on Shane Warne, but respectable. Harbajan Singh ain't that much further back.. but isn't playing. Between those two the New Zealand side have Daryl Tuffey and Chris Martin (673 and 664) and above Khan they have Chris Cairns. Khan is only 3 points above Shane Bond. Below them, Daniel Vettori has slipped back from his high of 661.. behind Jacob Oram... but he's still way ahead of the other Indian bowlers... who are only just ahead of Wiseman and Butler.

Add in the fact that in Richardson, New Zealand have a quality opener that India can only dream about.... and that Macmillan, Flemming, Astle, Cairns and Styris are al quality batsmen (rated ahead of GAnguly).... that Oram and Sinclair are not far behind... and that Vincent and Vettori both rate above Yuvraj Singh... that Matthew Horne rates above Patel and Chopra... who only just edge out Brendon McCullum... and India's claim to be in the same league as New Zealand looks a little weak.

[Rachael]

Oh.. I'm not sure it's even worth comparing India and South Africa... but for instance: Pollock is 2nd in the world at 837, Ntini is 9th at 722. Kallis has slipped with the ball to 15th... but his rating of 609 is better than Nehra and Pathan added together. Nel has slipped to 24th... ahead of Boje who has slipped to 28th.. and Adams has slipped to 39th.. but even Adams is more than 50 points above Argakar. Andrew Hall comes in ahead of Pathan and Nehra.

Batting Wise... Kallis and Gibbs are both ahead of Sehwag and Tendulkar... and Kirsten / Smith are only just behind (ahead of Laxman). Pollock, Rudolph, Boucher and McKenzie are good rather than exceptional (but not that far behind Ganguly)... and four other guys figure in the PWC top 100.

India have a long, long way to go to match that sort of line up!

[Rachael]

To make matters worse... Inzi and Yousuf Youhana are rated higher than Thorpe, Butcher, Vaughan and Trescothick... who are closely followed by Taufeeq Umar... but Hussain is quite a way ahead of Yasir Hameed and Younis Khan... who are probably going to drop below Flintoff after tomorrow.

Bowling wise, Harmison is rated above Akhtar... Hoggard is rated above Kaneria... Umar Gul is only just rated above Flintoff... and Sami is down in 60th... way below Giles (37th) Johnson (40th) Anderson (49th) Kirtley (52nd) Bicknell (53rd) and Jones (56th).

If India struggle against this Indian side... they can hardly be favourites to even beat England!

[Vinoth]

India has a very weak bowling attack. Generally you can gloss over that for one dayers.
I would suggest just ignoring Vinoth in future, reason, logic, common sense, facts etc make no impact on him.
I have tried to counter his ranting with facts and figures, reasoned arguments etc. No effect he just continues to talk rubbish

Cool Baby


This Board Is just for mutual understanding between persons and sharing our feelings and thoughts in the game of cricket, you seem not like that.

What Your Thoughts rise is England Is best in world and could not be defeated by anyone, it seems ridiculus!

Your Thought Does Survive When there is an meaning, I do Agree India Has Week Bowlers, But Where Were You Geniuos Bowlers when

India Won In Natwest One And Test Series.

In Your HomeLand.

And England Has Been Worst In Ashes Tour Against Aussies. But India Managed to Make An Draw, With Stunning Perfomance.

So Ought Not to Critize anyone dude, till the point of intervention is correct on your side.

[cantplaycantalk]

"This Board Is just for mutual understanding between persons and sharing our feelings and thoughts in the game of cricket, you seem not like that."

Sharing thoughts and feelings is fine. Making sweeping statements with no factual backing, being downright insulting regarding the England players on the England forum, is not going to foster "mutual understanding".

As I pointed out and Racheal backed up with FACTS and FIGURES, the India attack is very weak. Two reasonable spinners but no quality seamers. Point is if you are going to make a comment then back it up. Otherwise what you are doing is just going to be regarded as throwing insults.

"What Your Thoughts rise is England Is best in world and could not be defeated by anyone, it seems ridiculus!"
I have never said that or even suggested it! Aus are the best in the world by a distance. PWC ratings confirm this as does a simple player by player match. I have stated that England are a good and improving team, and will stand by that statement. It is backed up by recent results and performances, and by the quality shown by Steve Harmison, Simon Jones, Geriant Jones who are all recent additions to the team, also by the improvements made by Mark Butcher and Andy Flintoff over the last year or so.

"Your Thought Does Survive When there is an meaning, I do Agree India Has Week Bowlers, But Where Were You Geniuos Bowlers when In Your HomeLand."
When? They are recent additions. Last year we wiped the floor with Zim and played out a tough 2-2 draw with SA (PWC ranked 2) That was Harmisons first series at home, he was instrumental in England winning the final test. Jones was injured, as was Gough and Caddick. SA had the full team available most of the time. I would admit they (SA) were unlucky not to win the series as they played better overall but England showed a lot of grit and determination.

"And England Has Been Worst In Ashes Tour Against Aussies. But India Managed to Make An Draw, With Stunning Perfomance." Most teams have been rolled over by Aus in recent years they are (or perhaps were with the 2 Waughs and Mcgrath at his best) probably the best team that has ever existed. The India result was against a much weakened Aus team. Both Warne and McGrath out and Waugh retired. (Try taking Dravid and Tendulker and Kumble out of the India line up and see how strong it looks for comparison)

"So Ought Not to Critize anyone dude, till the point of intervention is correct on your side."
I'm not sure what that means, but I think I am fairly ok to be critical of your "opinion", I am backing mine up with facts, the only problem is however you only see what you want to see and only hear what you want to hear, so I suspect that I will be misquoted a insulted whenever I point out the shortcomings of India.

[Vinoth]

Lets Leave This Matter And Start Continuing our services to this forum and make this place for cricket fans all around the world.

[CJ D]

Okay Vinoth everybody that took part in your Poll was wrong. Hi scoring draw - so much for a Windies win.