Are all the greats FAST?

[Goatman]

Just got a large box full of mud from New Orleans today, so I'm going to have to dissappear again . But I thought I'd get a ball rolling and pick up on something Ern has claimed.

The statement is:-

"All the great bowlers were fast".

Well, lets ignore the spinners first off - obviously Ern diddn't mean to write them off. However, even forgetting them I'd have to say that this was, in the immortal words of Douglas Adams "A bucket load of foeted dingos kidneys".

I can think of lots of seamers who were not "fast" bowlers who would bear mentioning in the same breath as the best. So I've popped up a poll. As well as filling in the poll, it would be nice to see some nominations for the best "movement" seamers in the histroy of the game. To kick you off with a few, I would like to promote the cases of Shaun Pollock, Richard Hadlee, Ian Botham, Brian Statham, Alec Bedser and Kapil Dev at this point.

Hopefully I'll be able to find time to pop back and see how the discussion is going! It might be interesting. For me, anyway......

[flanflinger]

I don't think that all the genuinly quick bowlers remained quick, all the way through their career.

If you look at the list Hadlee and Pollock started off very quick, and slowed down with age. The same can be said about Botham.

As its is the great thing about Cricket is that it can include genuinely quick players, slower guys with plenty of tricks, and very slow spinners with guile. Good batsmen can get out to all of them...

[Goatman]

I don't rerally think Botham was ever quick, in the sense that Marshall or Thomson were quick? Same goes for Pollock, who has lost pace, but from RFM to RMF rather than RF to RFM?

[Teatime FatCat]

We've had this discussion before, I'm sure that in reading Ather's book he says that in his early days Pollock was fearsomly quick and bowled lots and lots of nasty bouncers.

It's spin for me and Mr Warne I'm afraid.

[Goatman]

OK - we can extract early vintage Pollock and Hadlee if you wish. However, in the case of the latter the "great" period came in the second half of his career and, arguably, as a pure pace merchant he was good but not great. And Pollock has, at least, not declined for losing his pace.......

[Goatman]

Anyway, the point is not so much to debate whether Pollock could bowl bouncers, but who are the great "medium pacers"*. If you don't think X or Y fits the bill, just say so and suggest who does. That way we can avoid the discussions TTFC rightly points out we have had before.


* Please note, that by using the term "medium pacers" I don't mean RM bowlers. there seems to be a gap in the terminology. Recommendations anyone?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Goatman

Ern is right, they are overwhemingly FAST!

I have not voted yet, and maybe I should not in this poll, it may be claimed I am a little biased.

But if I was to vote, Goatman has left me a loophole to vote option "1", as he has inserted the word "overwhelemingly", so I coud say yes this will do for me, I could cire all the great fast bowlers the likes of Larwood, Trueman, Holding,Marshall, Ambrose, Garner,Lilee,Thompson,Wasim,Younis and more who where genually quick, but that loophole allows me to give a mention to the likes of Botham, Hadlee, dev, Imran.

Also I can mention Laker, Bedi, Warne, Underwood.

What I am saying that the greatest of bowlers have been overwhelminely geunine fast bowlers, and be correct methinks.

Ern

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I have not voted yet, and maybe I should not in this poll, it may be claimed I am a little biased.

Vote away old chap!

Originally Posted by Ernest

What I am saying that the greatest of bowlers have been overwhelminely geunine fast bowlers, and be correct methinks.

Lets say that "overwhemingly" means 90%+ of all seam bowlers. In other words, for every Botham or Dev I can name you have to name 9 Marshalls, Thomsons and Khans........

I've got a two bob and a pickled egg that say you can't!

[Rachael]

First things first: there have been a stack of genuinely medium pace bowlers who have been outstanding.. headed (without doubt) by Bedser.. who stands tall in the PWC ratings as one the 15 all time greats who have broken the 900 mark.

I assume we're mostly dealing with RFM bowlers though: guys like Botham, McGrath, Pollock (all in the PWC elite club).. and arguably (to pick two further greats who both did their best work as they slowed down in later life) the likes of Hadlee and Ambrose.

Interestingly.. the two most notable guys in the PWC 900+ group who did need to bowl fast to be effective are Waqar Younis (the one bowler whose economy rate was constantly taking a battering due to his commitment to pitching the ball up and making the batsmen play) and Malcolm Marshall (possibly the shortest and best of all the WI fast bowlers.. and the one who stands out from the rest because unlike Holding, Roberts, etc... he generally forsook whistling the ball through to the 'keeper and concentrated on skidding the ball into the batsman and making them play).

That's just in passing: what follows was a definitive list (from cricket@pwcratings.com) of the bowlers who have achieved career best bowling ratings of 800 or more. Correct as of 27/02/2004 17:22:56 GMT Standard Time

1 S.F.Barnes
2 Imran Khan Pak
3 G.A.Lohmann Eng
4 G.D.McGrath Aus
5 M.Muralitharan SL
6 C.E.L.Ambrose WI
7= G.A.R.Lock Eng
M.D.Marshall WI
9 S.M.Pollock SA
10 Waqar Younis Pak
11 R.J.Hadlee NZ
12 I.T.Botham Eng
13 S.K.Warne Aus
14 D.L.Underwood Eng
15 A.K.Davidson Aus
16 C.V.Grimmett Aus
17= D.K.Lillee Aus
A.A.Donald SA
19= J.C.Laker Eng
F.S.Trueman Eng
L.R.Gibbs WI
W.W.Hall WI
23 A.M.E.Roberts WI
24 W.J.O'Reilly Aus
25 J.Briggs Eng
26 A.V.Bedser Eng
27= R.R.Lindwall Aus
W.A.Johnston Aus
29 J.Garner WI
30 C.E.H.Croft WI
31 Kapil Dev Ind
32 A.Kumble Ind
33 G.F.Lawson Aus
34 H.Trumble Aus
35 H.Ironmonger Aus
36 H.J.Tayfield SA
37 M.W.Tate Eng
38= H.Verity Eng
M.A.Holding WI
40 K.Higgs Eng
41 R.Benaud Aus
42 I.R.Bishop WI
43 C.A.Walsh WI
44 K.R.Miller Aus
45 R.G.D.Willis Eng
46 Fazal Mahmood Pak
47 C.Blythe Eng
48 G.D.McKenzie Aus
49 Wasim Akram Pak
50 N.J.N.Hawke Aus
51 N.A.T.Ad**** SA
52 Mushtaq Ahmed Pak
53 R.Peel Eng
54 J.A.Snow Eng
55 P.M.Pollock SA
56 B.A.Reid Aus
57 J.R.Thomson Aus

Pick out who you will from that list.. but I'll wager there are enough fast-medium bowlers to answer the poll in this question.

[Maranello]

Sure Rachael, but the PwC "best ever" rating is a measure of performance at one point in time. It is by no means an indication of how great a bowler was over their entire careers.

So if someone has one truly outstanding series, they can shoot up 30 or 50 points in the ratings and could end up with a score over 900. However, statistically this is not the same as being the better over their whole careers than someone whose best was only 875. For that we need to measure the weighted average of ratings for the players over each match they played and then compare their career total points, not the the peak they attained. The one peak is all very well but it does not tell us of all the possible troughs!