Butcher and Thorpe?>

[Ernest]

This is a serious question, I have banged on about Glen McGrath's age being against him when he comes to England in 2005.

But to look at out own team, questions have to be asked about Butcher and Thorpe (and Thorpe is the core of the team), will they be to be ageing, Butcher has not played that much, and Rob key is in his no 3 spot.
Graham Thorpe, is another getting older, but he would be more problematic to replace.

Harmison and Flintoff have stole the headlines, but the other players matter, anyone else think Butcher or Thorpe are in danger of loosing theie places by 2005, with players like Bell and Pieterson knocking on the door.

I myself hope Thorpe will still be here, but I doubt Butcher will.

And Anderson and Hoggard will both be in the squad, who should they stop picking, and let the other get on with playing for his county?.

[Beny]

It's not like you've got nobody to replace them with. Bell and Pieterson look ready for a go. Perhaps It will actually be a good thing as one of these two really stand up to be the next big thing in English Cricket.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Beny

It's not like you've got nobody to replace them with. Bell and Pieterson look ready for a go. Perhaps It will actually be a good thing as one of these two really stand up to be the next big thing in English Cricket.

Good point, but Graham Thorpe is the main worry, he is the one who can steady the ship.I dont think they can play Pieterson with Flintoff in the side.

[Beny]

Sometimes to gain you must lose. Why can you not play Pieterson with Flintoff? Is this guy never going to get a go whilst Flintoff is in the team?

[Rachael]

Thorpe's clearly the top English bat at the moment.. and looks to be at his peak.. but my own feeling is that Butcher's best is still to come: he never impressed me in his early career.. and seemed no more than average in more recent years.. but of late I think he's actually been showing signs that he can be better than that: he's finally showing the one thing that always eluded him.. being the temperament to deliver when his contribution is really needed.

Jury is still out though: Butcher needs a good winter.

My own concerns are more with Tresco... who has never struck me as good enough to be a Test match opener (great ODI player, perhaps a Test no 6.. but a player in the mould of Hayden who just hasn't shown the ability to dominate against the new ball that Hayden has shown.. and who has hardly ever shown the technique and temperament to compensate in other ways, as Langer does).

As I see it we're still short of openers: Strauss does it.. and does it OK at county level... but bats in the manner of a no 5 (nudging and nurdling the singes to rotate the strike, not waiting for the bad ball and punishing it); Tresco bats like a no 6 (little footwork, but a good eye and the ODI strokes to cash in when the attack is tired and the ball is soft); Vaughan has done it.. but seems best suited (temperamentally) to reacting to the tempo of an innings rather than to setting the tempo of an innings; Key can do it... but looks more like a no 3.. building big innings... but best protected from the new ball due to technical deficiencies.

Bell does NOT open for his county.. but might actually be a better bet than any of them. Find a partner of similar callibre and then run the 3-4-5 as Key, Vaughan, Strauss and IF Flintoff genuinely CAN handle batting at 6 (or Jones can do that job: doesn't really matter which one masters it as long as one of them does) then great - but that's longer term. In the shorter term.. England are SURELY better off trusting to the experience of Tresco, Butcher and Thorpe (perhaps with Bell at 6).

ps. Pietersen remains a great unknown.. but if he can be a Hick like no 3 (batting as Hick could have done, rather than as he DID do) then great. Seems quite likely, however, that he'll be more like Chris Gayle.... firing occasionally with devastating effect but rarely when really needed.

I've nothing against trying one or two such players in a Test side.. but Flintoff and GO Jones look to be out of the same mould.. and Tresco's best game is much the same!

[Ernest]

He is to much like Flintoff with his batting, Stroke makers if it not their day, get out, as a rule caught on the boundry, so it is to much of a gamble.

Ian Bell, well we will have to see how well Butcher playes if he is recalled, but then Rob Key is next in line.

Yes Flintoff good as he is, does limit your options to a degree like playing Pieterson.

[Beny]

Ern you're starting to sound like Rachal complaining about the stroke makers!

What would you call having Hayden,Gilly,lehamn,Clarke and Symonds all in a team? Ponting's not exactly a defensive batsmen either.

[Ernest]

Rachael with respect, you spoiled a really good post with saying maybe play Bell at 6, we all know that is the optimum place for Flintoff, he is not a number 5, and a man who was better than all comers this summer, just can't be played at 7, looked when he played at 7 before, bowlers could not wait to bowl at him, knowing a boundary catch would be iminent, no Flintoff by all commentators, is a true no 6.


Trescothick I am not sure, he started his England career so well, but he is an opener, and I doubt dropping him down the order would work.
The only option is for Vaughan to open again, and Tresco at 3, or drop him, but for whom?.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Beny

Ern you're starting to sound like Rachal complaining about the stroke makers!

What would you call having Hayden,Gilly,lehamn,Clarke and Symonds all in a team? Ponting's not exactly a defensive batsmen either.

Well I would not be silly enough to put Pieterson in with Flintoff against the Aussies, until Pieterson has shown what he can do.

OK you have stroke makers, but apart from Clarke, they are all experienced.

Off subject but Clarke has to prove himself, I know he has had a good start, but he has to keep it going.

I like stroke makers but with the Aussies it's horses for courses, the best team we "know" we have.

[Beny]

I say get the paint out an draw him some feet on the pitch so that he can use them as guides.

Originally Posted by Ern

Off subject but Clarke has to prove himself, I know he has had a good start, but he has to keep it going.

I know but he looks set for a good carrer.