Two Out Of Eleven.?>

[Maranello]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Well it would seem you are agreeing with me, were are the up and coming players,?

In theory, if we follow your reasoning, the other nine players in each county team should be up and coming players. Are they? Are the nine players in each county team good enough to one day play for England and do well?

Let's forget the overseas two for a moment. If the other nine local boys are not up and coming, why not? And why are they still being selected by the counties instead of these mythical "up and coming players" who never get a game?

The answer is that the nine fellows who get selected are the best available, but many of them, as you know, are still not good enough to play for England and do well.

Originally Posted by Ernest

Good question, but the counties will not worry that much, because they can just go and buy 2 players of the peg.

They cannot. It costs money to buy an overseas player. And as I said before, there is only one Murali, each of the 18 counties cannot buy him! As Rachael said earlier, due to:

- the high costs of buying an overseas player
- the fact that there are only a handful of truly world class players

the assumption that any county can buy an overseas player just like that, off the peg, is not valid.

Originally Posted by Ernest

Does not quite work like that,Who out of the England team could play anywhere else, they always seem to be playing for England, beats me how other countries national players seem to be available for out county cricket, Like Murali and Warne, but when would Harmison or Thorpe have the time to play elswhere.

Forget Harmison or Thorpe, if Keedy was that good, why doesn't he play domestic cricket in Pakistan or India right now? Plenty of great spinners there from whom he can learn, would be excellent for his career if he was interested in furthering it.

And if he was that worried about losing his place to Murali, and if he is allegedly good, why doesn't he play for any of the other 17 counties, what is stopping him?

Originally Posted by Ernest

Have you never thought Maranello, these has-beens, and never-weres, are the missing nearly 20%, of English county players.

Sure, but for my money, they can stay missing, since even from the other 80% that is not missing, only the top 10-15% is good enough to play for England!

[Ernest]

It is Not just Murali though is it Maranello?.

look on what used to be Andy Mellons county forum and you will find

Graeme Smith to captain Somerset

Andrew Hall to join Kent

Is not Warne going to be playng for some County
And there are others, no use pretending it just boils down to Murali.

As for Keedy, as you say it is a free world, he can go were he wishes, but then again it is not just Keedy, you are missing the point, players are just not coming through fast enough in the set up we have, and like it or not, they will not have the incentive to produce more players when the can buy ready made players.

And I would say it is cheaper to pay for an overseas star, than grow your own.

[Rachael]

Just out of interest... I can think of one notable moment in the last year when a bowler who is considered a genuine England prospect did NOT get to play even for his county.

Remember Simon Jones not getting selected for Glamorgan.

Also recall Simon Jones hardly EVER having played a one day match for his county.

Can anyone tell me which players kept Jones out on that fateful day.. or which players have kept Jones from gaining the one day cricket experience he craves? I doubt, somehow, that the answer is a stack of imported players....

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Is not Warne going to be playng for some County

Yup, he's the Hampshire captain. Warne seems really commited to Hampshire as well. He looks like he genuinely enjoys it and isn't just here for the money.

[Maranello]

Most overseas pros, excecpt the truly great such as Murali or Dravid etc, are not here primarily for the money, they come to develop as crickters, develop their careers and learn. Only a few are so good that there is nothing county players and matches can teach them, eg Murali, Dravid, SRT...and if they come, one can say its either for the money, or as in Warne's case, to do something they always wanted to do (lead a team and win as a captain).

[Occasional Fan]

I guess what I don't understand is the belief that cricket needs to grow its international teams on home turf. Soccer certainly doesn't do it - have a look at any of Europe's international squads and you'll find a number of players who play in the English Premier League. No-one who follows soccer feels that the quality of the Premier League suffers. In the meantime, England's captain (and others) are playing in Spain, and no-one in England seems to feel that the English national side suffers from that either. At the less "glamourous" end of life, I know a good few English Chartered Accountants and Solicitors who have made their living abroad, and a good few American Certified Public Accountants who work in England.

Cricket is a job like any other for those who play it professionally, and a business like any other for the clubs. I don't understand why the people involved in it as players should not be expected to be just as mobile as footballers or Chartered Accountants.

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Just out of interest... I can think of one notable moment in the last year when a bowler who is considered a genuine England prospect did NOT get to play even for his county.

Remember Simon Jones not getting selected for Glamorgan.

Also recall Simon Jones hardly EVER having played a one day match for his county.

Can anyone tell me which players kept Jones out on that fateful day.. or which players have kept Jones from gaining the one day cricket experience he craves? I doubt, somehow, that the answer is a stack of imported players....

The attack for the County Championship match in question was probably Kasprowicz, Harrison, Wharf and Croft. At the time all of these bowlers were playing well and had been for some time (I think we had won 4 or 5 matches on the spin). With Glamorgan pushing for promotion to Div 1 the decision was taken to play what was thought to be the best attack for Glamorgan's chances of promotion rather than give Simon Jones a run out to help out the England team (would anything different ever happen in another sport?). However, there was no 'agenda' as some have sought to suggest (to teach Jones a lesson in some way) as he did play for Glamorgan later in the season.

As regards our one day side, we have been there or thereabouts in the National League for a few seasons now (and have won it twice during that period). Over this time the side has been fairly settled and there has been no need to include Jones (indeed Andrew Davies, who rarely plays for the championship side has been pretty much ever-present in the one day team with some success).

Therefore the players who have kept out Jones (disregarding the spinners Croft and Cosker - who are both Welsh anyway) have been Kasprowicz (who is in the current Australia XI so cannot be second rate!), Wharf (who has been selected for the England ODI team), Harrison (who has been selected for the Academy) and Davies (another young Welshman) with not a second rate overseas player or dodgy Kolpak/EU passport player in sight!

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Just out of interest... I can think of one notable moment in the last year when a bowler who is considered a genuine England prospect did NOT get to play even for his county.

Remember Simon Jones not getting selected for Glamorgan.

I can match that with the batting, Butcher a long time favoutite of yours could not keep a place in the Surrey team when he was last selected to play for England.

Originally Posted by Maranello 27447

Most overseas pros, excecpt the truly great such as Murali or Dravid etc, are not here primarily for the money, they come to develop as crickters, develop their careers and learn. Only a few are so good that there is nothing county players and matches can teach them, eg Murali, Dravid, SRT...and if they come, one can say its either for the money, or as in Warne's case, to do something they always wanted to do (lead a team and win as a captain).

I have never said they come here for the money, all I have said nearly 20% are here, and that must make a difference.

Originally Posted by Pete

Yup, he's the Hampshire captain. Warne seems really commited to Hampshire as well. He looks like he genuinely enjoys it and isn't just here for the money.

Yes and I can see merit in that, but Warne is the only overseas player they need, the Hampshire team will gain a lot from his captaincy and dedication.

I am not against 1 player from overseas being included in the county set up, but this has been brought up before, and rules have been changed before.
At one time I think there was no limit to how many players a county could sign from overseas, then I am sure they changed it to one, now it is back to two.

It did not matter in the days when Lancashire had such players as Clive Lloyde, and Farook Engineer[Spelling?], becuase there was nowhere near the amount of England cricket, and the counties had a lot more exposure on the TV, I used to enjoy watching Lancs in those days.
But now with England playing cricket around the clock, we need the counties to produce the players.

[Zainub]

For me money Erne its not the 2 overseas player per county rule that is coming in the way of potential England future players but the other non-English cricketers that are playing as locals - the ones that have EURO passports and all.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi

the ones that have EURO passports and all.

But, Zainub, as I've said several times on this board before, there's nothing that can be done about them. They have exactly the same rights to work in the UK as Brits. Cricket just needs to accept that one and work with it: it's not going to change.