South Africa A

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Milo

Which leads us back to the start of the discussion. If you can't DO something with the ball, you shouldn't be playing test cricket. Only then does the strategy I outlined an hour ago work. We were talking about Harmison after all....I presume he does have the ability to make the ball do something. If he doesn't, he won't be world number one for long.

Unfortunately, its home time for little Goats. But I have time for 1 (2 now) last thoughts:-

Bowlers undoubtedly get better through thier 20's more often than not. It has always seemd to me that this is because they learn how to use different surfaces / flaws in a batsmans technique / etc. as they become more experienced. So, as they get older they have less left to learn. So they have to make less adjustments all the time, they can just go straight in with the right line & length and get on with it in a simple way.

So, for an experienced bowler, the situation isn't far off what you describe:- its a matter of going through thier tool box and finding the spanner that fits the situation. A relative novice like Harmison is still several spanners short of the full set, if you catch my drift. If he can pinch them off the opposition, so much the better in my book.

Second point (copied from above): How am I meant to convince anyone I'm not a complete moron when my spelling and grammar are like those of a chimpanzee with a chubby crayon?

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Oliver

You are suggesting that Hoggard has become a better bowler through tightening up and abandoning extravagant movement in favour of control. And he should bowl (ideally) in tandem with Flintoff - who formerly, in your humble opinion, was not a good bowler, because he was so controlled and tight that he had no extravagant movement.

Hmmm confused

Don't be: I think it was actually one of the WI greats of the past who finally explained to Hoggard that gettign 2-3" late movement either way from a ball that pitches in the right place is better than gettign 5-10" of movement off a ball that swings from the hand and which is impossible to pitch in the right place because you aren't sure how much it's going to swing.

Key thing: he still shapes the ball both ways.. unlike Flintoff.. who just puts it in the right place.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Exactamundo... exactly my point... however I concede that the quote should be: "he always pitched the ball in the right place" nevertheless, I would think a top batsman should be able to turn it into a juicy half volley, even if it isn't all that wide.

Good point.. except that what counts as a good length depends on where the batsmen is when you release the ball: a good length to Matty Hayden is for instance) a lot shorter than a good length to Graham Thorpe.. as Hayden stands about 2' closer to the bowler and is keener on the front foot

Originally Posted by Goatman

I reckon its because even though the ball PITCHES in the same place it does not PASS THE BAT in the same place. It seams and swings both ways from the same action.

In other words:- pure accuracy is only half the battle! You have to make the ball DO something too.....

Shame most bowlers can only do oe or the other :-(

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Good point.. except that what counts as a good length depends on where the batsmen is when you release the ball: a good length to Matty Hayden is for instance) a lot shorter than a good length to Graham Thorpe.. as Hayden stands about 2' closer to the bowler and is keener on the front foot



-(

With Rachael on this one here. The length also varies dependant on not just where the batsman stands, but also his height. Can you imagine if you had to bowl to Clive Lloyd and Sunuil Gavascar. You would need two very different lengths for each batsmen.

When I practice bowling (my poor off-spin) I practice putting the ball on a spot a few inches in-fronf of a batsmen's front-foot (in a standard drive position). To get the batsmen driving. If I just bowled on the same spot, a short batsmen would be able to cut or pull what a taller batsmen would be looking to drive...

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

With Rachael on this one here. The length also varies dependant on not just where the batsman stands, but also his height. Can you imagine if you had to bowl to Clive Lloyd and Sunil Gavaskar? You would need two very different lengths for each batsman.

Yes this is all true here... and probably one of the reasons why over recent years England have struggled to remove the tail, usually made up of much taller individuals (aka bowlers) than the shorter chaps that have just disappeared back to the hutch.

It has to be said that I take most wickets on the puddingy green green grass of our elegant tree-lined home pitches, and then get smashed all over the ground everywhere else. Its not particularly that I can't find the right length, but the ball really does swing at home. There is currently a feeling amongst our batsmen to find a new hard pitch where they can score billions of runs. I'm trying to delay the inevitable.

Also my knees appreciate puddings. That's to bowl on, not to eat.

I bowled eleven overs for seventy-one on a belter in Surrey back in July. It was truly terrifying as their number four made 150 odd from 85 balls. I wasn't the only one to suffer, but I was the only one who didn't hide behind a distant tree every time the skipper cast around for victims.

And it hurt my knees. Far too hard. That's the pitch, not the bowling.

The trouble with being 43 and bowling slow medium with no real change of pace (except even slower) and no seam movement is that against a decent player on a belter it really doesn't matter where the hell you bowl. At least, that's my excuse anyway.

Now if I could throw one every now and then! Sorry just kidding.

Bowling "straight" is useful of course, but that day I think we put down about ten catches (one-fifty man was chanceless )... and even the reliable "handlers" got in on the act. It was one of "those" days.

[Beny]

Originally Posted by Thorpe

"It would be foolish to completely write off what's happened over the last few days," Thorpe told reporters ahead of England's departure from Potchefstroom, "but the key is not to panic too much. Enjoyment is a key element of coming into a Test match like this. You have to be able to enjoy the challenge, because it's not always a bed of roses out there."

Well said Mr Thorpe...

Sorry, you guys continue...

[Ernest]

Maybe the Key is to play Key

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Oliver

I bowled eleven overs for seventy-one on a belter in Surrey back in July. It was truly terrifying as their number four made 150 odd from 85 balls. I wasn't the only one to suffer, but I was the only one who didn't hide behind a distant tree every time the skipper cast around for victims.

Last game of the season we removed the first three wickets for not much and had them in a spot of trouble. Then local celebrity "Hacker" came in and made an unbeaten 200 without playing a single recognisable shot. He hit 17 sixes.

When he started smashing everything around the captain asked me to have a try:- I thought "No problem, I'll just bowl straight. He has to miss one eventually".

I did OK in terms of accuracy. 5 out of 6 balls were on the stumps. I pitched it up, varied the pace, got some swing and on a fairly dead artificial track even extracted some spin with my cutters. I even shifted one of the other bats.

My 9 overs to Hacker went for more than 100 runs.

course, it diddn't help that he was dropped six times off my bowling alone..... ... but still it was extraordinary hitting. Sometimes there's just nowt you can do.

[flanflinger]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cric...nd/4097571.stm


Have to say I fully agree with Boycs here. We are by far the better team, but the lack of practice could really cost us dearand could lead to us not being as competitive as we should be.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Milo

I remember this test match well. I would suggest that during the left/right hand partnership of Thorpe and Hussain partnership, McGrath consistently bowled the wrong line. That is a different issue and has nothing to due with the pitch conditions whatsoever. He just bowled very poorly - maybe due to the pressure of Australia falling apart in thier first innings - or maybe due to overtrying. He certainly didn't keep his cool and served up rubbish as a result.

Hmmm quote from Today's CricInfo in relation to Harmison... Think this backs up my point that it was LENGTH that was the issue...

Originally Posted by CricInfo

Even Glenn McGrath, he of the 8 for 24 at Perth this week, has known similar rough patches in his career. At Edgbaston on the 1997 Ashes tour, for example, his failure to locate an English length was a major factor in Australia's unexpected defeat. After that match, the coach Geoff Marsh dropped a handkerchief on a length and forced his errant bowler to aim there for the rest of the day. The upshot was a haul of 8 for 38 at Lord's in the next match, and the rest was history

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/CR...20DEC2004.html

Think I rest my case....

[Milo]

I don't know who the Andrew Miller is, but I would love to show him the video I have of the first test of that Ashes series.