Back to the Future

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Miles Cooper

Discuss?

What age was Sachin Tendulkar when he made his Test debut?
What age was Steve Waugh when he made his Test debut?
There are loads of other examples of youngsters being thrown in at the dep end and making their mark. It seems that this is something that the England selectors are exyremelt reticent to do. Their arrogance amazes me sometimes. We can learn so much from other nations not just on this subject but in sport in general. Australia being one of the finest examples of this with their Academies of Excellence for most sports.

Steve Waugh didn't make much of an impact when he was first selected. In fact he did not really become successful until he was about 28 and had been dropped in the intervening period.

India and Pakistan have a record of introducing players at a very young age - but how many of them actually go on to become consistent test performers even when they are initially successful?

What is right for players from one country is not right for players from another. How many young batsmen do Australia throw into their test team? The most recent changes have been the replacement of the Waughs and Slater with Langer, Lehmann and Martyn - none of these are young players.

[Essex Eagle]

A good indication of this is the fact that gooch averaged 37 before the age of 30 and 47 afterwards

[Miles Cooper]

Originally Posted by Essex Eagle

A good indication of this is the fact that gooch averaged 37 before the age of 30 and 47 afterwards

Yeah there are loads of examples such as that in history...just look at IVA, if he had scored pre-30 at the rate he did post-30...

Doesn;t mean that developing good young players for to play in the Test side isn't a good idea. What price a blend of youth and experience who can all hold their own?

[Teatime FatCat]

As I suspected, there is an argument for and against picking young players and throwing them in at the deep end. I think this argument stemmed from a comment on the success rate and current recall potential of certain players such as Salisbury. The real point is how much effort should be made to rehabilitate someone like Salisbury at 33 yrs old because he's the best wrist spinning option we've got.


My point was even if he was, Eng would get no more that a couple of years out of him, so why not put the money and time into someone who could potetnitally give the team 10 years.

I'd take a mixture of young and old in the team if it was sucessful and just hope that the powers that be were realistic about who needs to be coached and when.

Has Ricky Clarke been talked to about the mentality of batting and bowling?
Was Alex Tudor given help with motivation and attitude (as well as keeping himself fit!)?
Were Swann and Brown given a cuddle as unused spinners on a tour?
Was Dawson sent away to the best spin coach we had?
Were Afzaal, Solanki & Habib given intensive run-downs on what was wrong with their batting at test level?

Are any of our young brood given real, intensive help after unsuccessful starts, or are they just dropped after a couple of tests because there is such a big pool of other talent to pick from, that someone good might pop up? It's a scandalous waste of young talent if that is the case!!!!

[Notts Exile]

Interesting point, we certainly do seem to discard far too many players. If they're good enough to be given a chance then persevere with them or at least help them improve. We need to be giving them the best possible opportunity to succeed and I don't suspect we've been doing that.

Afzaal's problem wasn't his batting so much as his attitude on the tour to India (I think). Strange that he should end up at Northants where Graeme Swann suffered a similar fate on the tour to South Africa a year earlier.

[high_on_linseed]

Right. Where exactly is the English Tendulkar? Tendulkar was a phenom, and one of the most naturally gifted players the game has ever produced. He is literally one in not just a million but one in many millions. Sure there have been a few others like him who were fully ready to succeed at test cricket at an early age, some of them English even - Gower for example - but they dont come along that often. Once or twice a decade, if youre lucky.

If a youngster has the talent, sure, throw him in. But just dont expect instant results. Prime example - Flintoff. Oh, we all say hes great now, but he looked pretty chronic when he was first tried to be honest. I am speaking relatively of course. I expect the people who are all over Clarkes back now, saying he is talentless, blah, blah, blah, will be gushing with praise if he comes through in four or five years time.

The problem with England in the past ten years or so has been the team has never been really strong enough to accomodate passengers, and therefore nurture young talent. A fine example I gave was Salisbury. He made a decent debut at 22, against a Pakistani batting line up full of genius (Malik, Miandad, Inzi) so he clearly DID have the class to be a test-match leg spinner. But we didnt know how to develop him. And the rest of the attack simply wasnt strong enough to allow him to learn on the job, as it were. So, of course he screwed up. And we dropped him. Then that made him nervous on his comeback, so he screwed up again....repeat sequence.

Now, if we had a batting line up of five world beaters, I might say fine, throw Cook or Bell, or whoever in. But we dont. Each position counts, so we are quite sensibly bringing along potential addition/replacements like Strauss and Collingwood, little by little ,through the academy system, then ODIs and tour matches. If some of the young guys, like Napier, and Shafayat (not picking on them, just giving random examples) are struggling to impress on A tours, how the hell are they gonna turn it on instantly in the test arena.

So, to go back to a previous example, what happened to Flintoff? We chucked him in at the deep end and found he wasnt good enough at the time. So, we dropped him, told him to work on his fitness. Took him on an academy tour, gave him extensie coaching, then WENT BACK to him when he had shown improvement. Now, that is with someone who does have major talent, and to tell the truth he is STILL not quite the finished article. So, all this, throw, Peng, Stiff...insert flavour of the month in is frankly a bunch of tosh! If there was an Englsih Tendulkar, even at seventeen, they would already be dominating county cricket and averaging over 50. But there aint and they arent, so live with it.

[Teatime FatCat]

Good Answer - and very forcefully put!

Have you noticed how every year someone has a good May and they are immediatly a long-term candidate for England?

Last year it was Jefferson, Troughton - the year before Bell, Shah and Foster. Also everyone is on about Pieterson at the moment. I know I'm advocating pushing young players in, but you're right - it would be nice to see a nineteen year old who had absolutley dominated the county scene for a season and then gets pushed into the side.

Still I suppose that's wishful thinking - who was the last real young player whizzed into the England side after taking dozens of wickets / scoring multiple centuries and not just putting together a run in May?

[James M]

It's always great to see county pros picked on form, especially if they are really young. I would advocate the selction of Carberry if he carries on scoring runs. Equally, if someone like Newman at Surrey or Cook at Essex get going, wouldn't it be super to have them in the England side. But then someone of genuine natural talent who is older would get my vote as well. Whether county cricket is good preparation for Test cricket is another argument I suppose.

[Essex Eagle]

pieterson is hardly a may wonder though is he ?

this guy has scored a stack of runs in county cricket - averaging over 50 every season

he also was a class apart on the A Tour.


For instance although Ian Bell goes through a rough trot now and again, you can tell he is technically a good player from just watching him bat.

Something you couldn't say about habib.

Salisbury's problem is that he kept bowling full tosses every other over. Its all well saying he should have been given a chance but if we had a pace bowler with his stats it would be embarrasing!

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Arguably ed smith, but that didnt really work out. Although he was badly treated he didnt help matters by having a bad A team tour.