Why are England so bad at setting awinning score in ODI's?

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by cantplaycantalk

My gut feeling is that these last two results are down to the different ways the two teams play and the type of pitch.

cantplay

This pretty much sums up my opinions on this as well, which I posted in another thread. Good batting pitches favour the WI and good bowler pitches favour England. It's interesting to see the stats on the batting first/batting second results, which makes me wonder.

On a good batting pitch I'd expect the WI to win, but if England bat second, with the stats suggesting they do much better batting second, would that turn the game to Englands favour even on a good batting pitch?

I've always held the belief that in ODI's the side batting second has a significant advantage over the side batting first - they know what they have to do, and they know what pace they have to do it at.

The West Indies in the two most recent ODI's have held both advantages - batting second on a good batting pitch. Is this the principal reason they won both recent ODI's or were they just the better side on the day?

Interested in peoples views on this.

Scott

[Kirsty Harris]

Scott

I think that one reason for doing better when batting second is that as a team they seem more comfortable knowing what they have to do...it's the same kind of theory employed when i played rounders at school, funny enough!!! Could it be part of the Englsih mentality - that batting second is more in our nature.

AS for the WI winning the last two games, I belive the three crucial factors were:
1. England don't win batting first much
2. Harmy/Flintoff knackered - were as WI's bowlers have played less cricket in recent months. Mind you, even when Flintoff could hardly walk with cramp, he still bowled better than most of the other England bowlers.
3. West Indies middle order is much stronger than ours - we need more specialist batsmen and lest 'bits and pieces'.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Oliver

Robin Smith is the player that got me watching cricket in the 1st place - he was more than quite good!!! I remember his century against Austrailia in 1989....a bright spot in a terrible series...

If Pieterson is half as good as Smith was, we're in luck!

Dead right...I agree one hundred percent. Robin Smith was superb...I don't like to go overboard on players. But he was exactly what we don't have today. A powerful hitter, who would ONLY hit the bad balls. Generally the short, wide ones outside off stump which he would extremely powerfully cut to the boundary. Don't bowl to him there.

I nearly wrote, "if Pieterson is half the player he was..."

But actually that's not true...what we actually need NOW is somebody who is exactly as good as Robin Smith.

It is odd how, thoughout the ages (I've been watching - so that takes us back to 1976) England have continually picked not very good players and then been surprised when an obvious good one has suddenly achieved wonderful stuff.
I do remember when we picked Chris Smith to open the batting - a long time ago (1983 - 86) he was said to have mentioned: "If you think I'm good, you should see my brother."
It took the selectors another two years after they dropped Chris to have a look at Robin and I guess they were pretty pleased with what they saw. Nine hundreds and 28 fifties later they dropped him.

In 1996 - aged 33 - odd really, he'd gone 19 innings without scoring a ton. The last one being the 175 he made in the Antigua Test when Lara ran up his previous record. As I recall Smith got a very dodgy lbw that day. I guess the umpires didn't want him to staying there long enough to make another 201. The pitch was that good, I have no doubt he would've.

In those nineteen innings he made five fifties (one 90) v. West Indies at Lords.

I can remember Allan Lamb going four years between Test centuries, and he played every single Test match between.
That's only about eight years apart...so double standards there I think.

*MA Atherton c Hudson b Donald 0 24 21 0 0 Sorry these aren't clear...
AJ Stewart b McMillan 13 75 51 0 0 ...where's the tab when you need one?
RA Smith b Adams 66 261 179 8 0 ...that's score, min, balls, 4s, 6s,
GP Thorpe c McMillan b Donald 20 45 43 3 0 ...and apologies if you knew that already.
GA Hick c McMillan b Donald 2 1 3 0 0
+RC Russell c McMillan b Pollock 9 78 57 1 0
M Watkinson lbw b Pollock 11 6 9 2 0
DG Cork b Donald 16 53 33 2 0
PJ Martin c Hudson b Donald 0 6 6 0 0
ARC Fraser not out 5 12 8 1 0
DE Malcolm b Adams 1 5 3 0 0
Extras (b 4, lb 1, w 1, nb 4) 10
Total (all out, 68.1 overs) 153

That's Smith's last Test away to South Africa:

NV Knight c Mongia b Srinath 27 78 48 4 0
*MA Atherton c Rathour b Mhambrey 33 122 98 5 0
N Hussain c sub (R Dravid) b Srinath 128 313 227 18 1
GP Thorpe b Srinath 21 45 30 2 1
GA Hick c Mhambrey b Prasad 8 40 29 2 0
RC Irani c Mongia b Srinath 34 41 34 7 0
+RC Russell b Prasad 0 22 14 0 0
CC Lewis c Rathour b Prasad 0 1 1 0 0
DG Cork c Jadeja b Prasad 4 8 9 0 0
MM Patel lbw b Kumble 18 52 35 2 0
AD Mullally not out 14 47 25 3 0
Extras (b 16, lb 3, nb 7) 26
Total (all out, 90.2 overs) 313

This was the order in England's next Test, at home to India.
Ignoring the horror of Jack Russell batting at number six...and the completely different bowling attack, I think there was an option there for retaining Smith ahead of Hick...and (hey I feel sorry for Hick) for God's sake Ronnie Irani...WHY?

If you're playing Irani, you're playing a bowler short...I think they should've played Smith for Irani and used Hick's off breaks. That would've been a reasonably formidable batting order to play against India.

Interesting - another Oliver rant - that Irani played in the recent series with India as well. Should one suppose that his buddy Hussain was trying to get him noticed?

[Kirsty Harris]

Oliver

I remember the game against SA well! Heroic effort by Smith! I remember his brother said 'he'll get 100 caps for England', which, of course, he did!

I never thought Smith got the credit he deserved to be honest. England will always need a player in the Smith mould...sadly they don't come along that often....

BY the way..I have NO RECOLLECTION at all of a 'Watkinsin' playing for England! Who the hell was he? Was he any good?

On the Hussain front - don't be a naughty boy!!!

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Oliver

I remember the game against SA well! Heroic effort by Smith! I remember his brother said 'he'll get 100 caps for England', which, of course, he did!

I never thought Smith got the credit he deserved to be honest. England will always need a player in the Smith mould...sadly they don't come along that often....

BY the way..I have NO RECOLLECTION at all of a 'Watkinsin' playing for England! Who the hell was he? Was he any good?

On the Hussain front - don't be a naughty boy!!!

S'terrible Kirsty your chastisment has made me inadvertantly stab my cheek with a biro. I must watch what I'd doing.

Robin Smith got 62 caps for England, (perhaps that was irony on your part) but his average was still over 43 when he was dropped. Very odd decision.

Watkinson was CRAP. Perhaps a little better than Irani, in that he wasn't a big mouth, big talking git.
But he (Watkinson) was also a Lancastrian and Mike Atherton's county captain at the time.
Harks back to other occasions when current England captain's have had their journeyman county colleagues included.

Brearley - Barlow, Radley
Botham - Rose
Gower - Whittaker
Gatting - can't think of another journeyman Middlesex lad. Paul Downton was OK.
Gooch - Ilott
Atherton - Watkinson
Hussain - Irani
We wait with baited breath to see who Vaughan will pick from his own county, or Yorkshire.
Perhaps he will fall back on Craig White...no bad thing.

Who else do Yorkshire have?

Watkinson bowled medium pace rubbish and off breaks when the occasion called for it. I think Jimmy Ormond is a better bowler, and possibly a better batsman. Watkinson is currently one of Lancashire and England's bowling coaches. Strangely enough!
Back to the old adage, "Those who can; do. Those who can't; teach."

[Kirsty Harris]

Oliver

yes, poorly expressed irony...should have read should have had 100 caps...never
mind!

Interesting Captin/ journeymen players picked list... you could argue that Vaughan's player is Giles, I know he play's for a whole other county, but they are good friends...

Watkinson still rings no bells in my shell like head!!! Can't have played much!!!

[cantplaycantalk]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Who else do Yorkshire have?
"

McGrath!

Nuff said?

[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Scott

I think that one reason for doing better when batting second is that as a team they seem more comfortable knowing what they have to do...it's the same kind of theory employed when i played rounders at school, funny enough!!! Could it be part of the Englsih mentality - that batting second is more in our nature.

AS for the WI winning the last two games, I belive the three crucial factors were:
1. England don't win batting first much
2. Harmy/Flintoff knackered - were as WI's bowlers have played less cricket in recent months. Mind you, even when Flintoff could hardly walk with cramp, he still bowled better than most of the other England bowlers.
3. West Indies middle order is much stronger than ours - we need more specialist batsmen and lest 'bits and pieces'.

Also, England seem to treat the ODI side as a sort of junior Test side, in the absence of a proper A-team. I myself don't think this is a bad idea - it allows players to get international experience without affecting the real thing - Test matches.

Most of the England players are mentally exhausted - Vaughan, Tres, Flintoff, Read, Collingwood and Harmison, who are the senior members of the ODI side, have been in the WI for ages now. They've completed the important part of the job by winning the Test series, and must feel that this ODI series is a bit anti-climactic. I could understand it if they all felt like coming home, and I worry that they are playing too much cricket and should instead be preparing themselves for the Tests against NZ. This is especially true of Freddie and Harmison.

In contrast, the WI are at home and have a lot to prove to their fans after the Test performances. I can't be too critical of England, because this side is clearly experimental, and because the real work has been done. Having said that, of course it would be nice if we could avoid defeat here

Also, regarding the previous point about nudgers and nurdlers - England's problem in the last ODI, in my opinion, was that they only went for the ones and twos. On good batting pitches, like the St Lucia pitch, that isn't enough. With wickets in hand, you have to aim to double the score after 30 overs. I think the WI did this, in the first match at least. I also agree with the point about dynamic batting - if Strauss gets out, bring in Collingwood, if Flintoff goes, bring in Clarke/Blackwell.

[honestbharani]

sostenurter, I see your point about Test cricket being more important than ODIs but ODIs are still important. Because if you don't treat it as something that is important, you will never do well in it. I think the English guys just need to get together and identify batters for each position, not these bits and pieces guys but real batters..... They must first look at a good no.3 but with Strauss looking very impressive, I guess he could be that guy. At no.4, I guess Pieterson will walk into that number whenever he gets the citizenship. At no.5, I would personally like to see a real batsman, someone like Thorpe who can nudge it around and still find the boundaries when the situation demands.....I like Collingwood at no.6, he seems to understand his job and usually does well. Flintoff at no.7 because his big hitting can be best utilized at that spot. The keeper, whoever is chosen, at no.8. A spinner who can bat at no.9. Then Harmison and Jones/Anderson/Gough or whoever the other bowler is...... Perhaps, it leaves the team a bowler short, but I guess most sides play with 4 specialist bowlers these days...... I guess Collingwood, Tresco, Vaughan and Pieterson (if he can bowl) can always fill in.....