hi - i'm new here . . .

[Farmer Giles]

I think you've found one RBLC, and I think I've spotted it. No relation to Mr Blofeld then.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Well spotted that man ! I tried a few others my favourite being one of richies top phrases as heard on any copy of a 12th man tape.

"Marvelous effort that, easliy the best effort I've seen anywhere in the world"

But it had already been taken !!!!!!

[Mr Kiwi]

righty, i tried to reply to this ealier today but my 'puter went bung and i lost it all . . .

firstly - why so many all rounders? i've searched high and low for an answer and haven't come up with anything satisfactory sorry. there are two factors which may explain it in part:

1) population: with fewer players they tend to get called on to do more. most people who play sport here play rugby or various indoor activities, so those playing cricket are those who enjoy and presumably are reasonably confident at all aspects of the game.

2) grass-roots: i can remember being in the backyard bowling over and over at my brother while he practiced his batting. of course the only way i could get a bat would be to bowl him out or perform some miraculously athletic piece of fielding off by own bowling (for the record i just got demoralised and consequetially ended up pretty poor at everything). this trend continues today on beaches (for the moment at least), bbq's and backyards throughout the country (and i would assume in every other country where houses actually have backyards.

thats about the best i can do - pretty poor i know but i'll mull it over some more and let you know if i come up with any breakthroughs. now, to the topic of academies and 'a' tours. the NZ academy was set up however long ago for the friuts of it's labour to now be apparent (this could also be the cause of some players 'all-roundedness') while the 'a' team has started getting some real quality tours and games. i think it's a great idea - helps to keep fringe/ex test players in touch and provides a good step up from domestic to test level.

NZ currently has a very strong a-team which hammered SL'a' this summer just been, we go away to them in a few months. ideally 'a' sides should be playing almost as much cricket as top sides - a second division if you will which should include developing nations.

. . . all that's nothing new to you guys i'm sure . . .

[Goatman]

Here's a thought for you Mr. K. A couple of seasons ago, I was involved in setting up a club for the local 20 over evening comptetition. We were a fairly multinational group. I noticed that when Brits signed up they said "I'm a bowler" or "I'm a batsman". The four Kiwis that joined us all said "I've played a bit". Of them, two were very handy players, one being a true all rounder and the other was a batsman and more than useful part-time seamer. The other two weren't up to much, but still diddn't veiw themselves as specialists so much as "players". There was a real difference between the way these lads veiwed thier own game and the way we viewed our own. TO give an example, one of these two allrounders started getting onto my back about my batting halfway through the season - he rated it much higher than I did myself. I have only two shots - the big forward defensive and the oik. However, with no netting, no coaching and nothing but a bit of encouragement and confidence boosting I ended the season batting at 5/6 as I started contributing more often than I failed and I even managed to top score in two important games. In the process I smashed my previous personal best (a stodgy 25* which took about 12 overs) with a 7 over 43*, including some actual cricket strokes rather than my normal random slogs (which made me feel quite light headed).

Anyway. Could it simply be a matter of outlook? Anyone that plays test cricket is likely to be a good athelete. There is no reason at all why they shouldn't be able to bat a bit/bowl a bit. Maybe its just down to having the confidence to try.

[Rachael]

The "outlook" argument makes a little sense to me.

The other area where you see this is with "maturity". For some reason English sports-folk seem to peak very, very late.

Look at Henman in Tennis: he's been around and about, learning his trade, for something like a decade now... but at last he's showing that he really is one of the very, very best players in the world... and on his day THE best.

This is a pattern that seems to be repeated in ALL sports... and can't really be physiological... so I guess "outlook" has, in some way, shape or form, to be the answer.

I'd certainly say that was true of, say, Darren Gough: he could have been a number 7 batsmen if he'd been forced to bat in the top order for Yorkshire all these years. As it was, he developed a tail-ender's mentality and went down-hill fast.

This is another hobby horse of mine though: centrally contracted players should be available to the counties only on certain conditions. In the case of the batsmen it should be that they open the batting., In the case of the bowlers it should be that they bat in the top 6 or 7. IN the case of anyone with more than one string to their bow (say, Vaughan) it should be that their weaker suit (which I think is stil the bowling.. though I guess that's disputable now) is developed.

[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Rachael

The "outlook" argument makes a little sense to me.

The other area where you see this is with "maturity". For some reason English sports-folk seem to peak very, very late.

Look at Henman in Tennis: he's been around and about, learning his trade, for something like a decade now... but at last he's showing that he really is one of the very, very best players in the world... and on his day THE best.

This is a pattern that seems to be repeated in ALL sports... and can't really be physiological... so I guess "outlook" has, in some way, shape or form, to be the answer.

I'd certainly say that was true of, say, Darren Gough: he could have been a number 7 batsmen if he'd been forced to bat in the top order for Yorkshire all these years. As it was, he developed a tail-ender's mentality and went down-hill fast.

This is another hobby horse of mine though: centrally contracted players should be available to the counties only on certain conditions. In the case of the batsmen it should be that they open the batting., In the case of the bowlers it should be that they bat in the top 6 or 7. IN the case of anyone with more than one string to their bow (say, Vaughan) it should be that their weaker suit (which I think is stil the bowling.. though I guess that's disputable now) is developed.

It's not true of all English sports - English football has no problem with young players. But it is certanily true with tennis, cricket and, I think, athletics - Linford Christie was 32 when he won gold, Paula Radcliffe is now 30-ish, I think, and at her peak. It is all very odd. Saqlain used to make the point that we regard Paul Collingwood as a young player, when he is the same age as Ricky Ponting. Alec Stewart debuted aged 27. Even Vaughan and Trescothick, out two hopes for the future of the batting line-up, are 29 and 28. Andrew Strauss is just breaking into the international set-up, aged 27. I tmust be something to do with outlook, but I'm not exactly sure what. And as I say, English football has no such problems, and football has a far greater influx of foreigners.

I agree with players being made to develop their weaker suit. I find it pretty reprehensible that Darren Gough's Test best batting score came in his first Test innings. However, in the current England side, threr are signs that this is changing, wtih Hoggard's batting having improved through practice. Vaughan's reluctance to bowl himself annoys me though! He has bowled out Sachin Tendulkar, for god's sake!

[Goatman]

Not true of rugby either. In league you have people like Andy Farrell, who played his first test less than 12 months after being spotted by Wigan scouts as a teenage wonder-sub for a local amateur team. He scored on debut against NZ aged 18. A few years later he was GB captain. Ten years later he is viewed as one of the most talented players in the world, one of the best and most inspirational captains around and is yet to turn 30! Just popped his name into google and noticed that before the 2001 ashes series he was counted as GB's leader, inspiration, guiding hand and was counted amongst GB's most experienced veterans. At 26!

In union, dispite Dads Army accusations (purely born of the fact that no other criticism could be found of a team that was clearly the favourite) young players were instrumental in the world cup victory. The iconic Jonny Wilkinson debuted aged 18, was the youngest player ever to 500 international points and aged 25 has already taken part in two world cups and is rightly viewed as a vital cog in the England team. In addition to Wilkinson, the winning team included Woodman, Vickery, Lewsey, Cohen, Thompson and Tindall all of whom were highly experienced disptie being younger than 27. If these lads are yet to peak - as would be suggested by the comments above - then the next world cup is surely in the bag!

So whats up wi' the cricketers?

[Rachael]

Goatman - I think the "late bloomers" argument works as well for football and Rugby as any other sport: these sports make a big fuss about the few youngsters who have a bit of talent (Rooney in soccor and Wilkinson in Rugby get similar attention to that which Flintoff got and Anderson is getting)... but the bottom line remains that Rooney is way off world class in soccor (no match yet for, say Sheringham or Shearer, either of whom must almost be old enough to be his dad)... and place-kicking aside, Wilkinson is a pretty ordinary and one-dimensional Rugby player - certainly not in the class of Martin Johnson, Mike Catt, Lawrence Dallaglio, Phil Vickery or Richard Hill.. who seem to be the guys most credited for actually winning the world cup.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Rachael

(Rooney in soccor and Wilkinson in Rugby get similar attention to that which Flintoff got and Anderson is getting)... but the bottom line remains that Rooney is way off world class in soccor (no match yet for, say Sheringham or Shearer, either of whom must almost be old enough to be his dad)

Rachael

I'm really struggling to see your point on this.

Wayne Rooney is a prodigious talent, he was not only the youngest player to ever play for England, he was also the youngest player to ever score a goal for England. You wan't to compare Rooney at 19 to what Sheringham and Shearer did at 19? Go ahead and see the difference. What's your point in comparing a 19 year old to retired England players like Shearer and Sheringham who are now in the twighlight years of their career and neither of which actually currently play for England! You put Sheringham and Shearer into the 'world class' category and neither currently play for England - except Wayne Rooney - does - who's the world class one out of these three then?

I'm in no way disputing what Shearer and Sheringham have done in the past both were extremely good 'world class' players for England, but that 'world class' ability came with time and experience. Wayne Rooney is only 19 and plays for England right now, and is good enough to hold his place in the side. What age did Sheringham and Shearer start their England career?

The fact is Wayne Rooney will only get better with experience - he's still very young and I'm pretty sure that he will end up playing more games for England than Sheringham and Shearer put together.

Scott

[Goatman]

Ooooh, Rach, not sure about that. He's no Richard Hill thats for sure, but he is rightly accounted the best defensive fly half in the game and Engalnd simply haven't had the same edge in attack without him this season. May be another reason behind that of course, but it is certainly the obvious candidate - we'll see when he returns to fitness. He is quite a lot more than a place kicker, as shown by the fact that he has pushed a more experienced and equal kicker in the form of Grayson to one side. He is not the player the media make him out to be yet, but I don't think many pundits would dissagree with putting him right with Catt and Johnson et al in terms of playing skill (probably not Hill and at times Dallaglio though) and this is before his 25th birthday, whereas the others have 5+ years of extra experience. By your argument, by the time he reaches the same age he will totally eclipse them - which is fair enough - but to argue that he is in someway ordinary or failing to justify his place in the team is completlely bizarre. While he will undoubtedly improve with age, he is already world class which is rather the point we were making above, and if he does not stand out in the team it rather suggests the team is rather strong. Which is hardly surprings as they are world champions! Johnson and Dallaglio are both ahead in match influence, but that is rather a different matter in in most cases (see below!) comes with age. Catt may have more ability, but he's never delivered it in the same way. Incidentally, Vickery is only a couple of years older than Wilkinson, which weakens your argument a bit. Wilko, Vickery, Cohen and Tindall (who don't forget is the same age as Wilkinson, even if he is an ugly bugger) looked the part the very first moment they pulled on an England jersey and haven't showed any sign of slowing up yet. How you conclude that they are fairly ordinary players completely bafffles me as these 4 figure in many of the world XV's I've seen recommended sicne the world cup. I know little and care less about oikball, but rugby union is not a game in which your model holds water.

On the other hand we have Andy Farrell. Accoutned by all to be amongst the very best players in the world by his mid twenties and captaining the GB side by the same age he can harldy be considered a late bloomer. That 2001 article I bumped into describes him as the most infleuntial player in the upcoming AUS'/GB series, and at the time he was 26. LAte bloomer? If he gets any better than he is he will go down as the greatest player ever! From the moment he debuted in tests at 18 he looked the part - both scoring and making scores, and putting in the hard yards with the best- , and has not missed a test except through injury since. Even more so than union, league is not a game in which your model holds water.

You are well known for your dislike of youth with some justification, but your post above is completely at odds with reality.