hi - i'm new here . . .

[R W S]

What a way to bring up the hundred ....

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

playing more games for England than Sheringham and Shearer put together.

Scott

Scott - wrong about Rooney

Shearer 63/30
Sheringham 51/11

So Rooney to play more than 114 games and score over 41 goals?

Originally Posted by Rachael

and place-kicking aside, Wilkinson is a pretty ordinary and one-dimensional Rugby player - certainly not in the class of Martin Johnson, Mike Catt, Lawrence Dallaglio, Phil Vickery or Richard Hill.. who seem to be the guys most credited for actually winning the world cup.

RDT - Wrong about J Wilkinson in the RWC 2003:All players/teams stats

Most Tackle Attempts 6th

Most Off-Loads 2nd

Most Carries 2nd

The general point about late blooming has merit.

[Goatman]

Direct quote from Martin Johnson in the post world cup period:-

"There is a lot of pressure on him and he gets built up to a degree where people expect superhuman stuff from him and most of the stuff he does is verging on that. To call him a kicker doesn't do him justice because the work he puts in on the field and in all aspects of his game is fantastic. "
"He is a very special player, and will be England captain one day. If he wants to be."

[Rachael]

My point, Scott, is that Rooney has bags of potential and no idea what to do with it: right now, on merit, Sheringham and Shearer would both get into the England team ahead of him.. and whilst he may get to play (because we're desperate for someone to partner Owen) he is struggling to assert himself (or even command a place in a starting XI) at Premiership level, let alone international level - he just ain't ready.

If Rooney is a hobby horse of yours then try Owen: a guy who's seemingly been around for ever but still ain't anywhere near being the striker that everyone thought he had the potential to be. Sure, he's still got what he started with (raw pace following a punted ball into space) and he's starting to develop the control and touch to hold the ball up, beat people with the ball at his feet, deliver decent crosses, strike left footed and so on - but compare him with (say) Reyes or the Man-U Ronaldo (who are both barely out of nappies and who have already cracked most things on that list) and Owen looks like geting there quite a few years late - which is placing huge strains on both Liverpool and England as it means the team is being bent out of shape (formation, players) to accomodate his one-dimensional game.

There will always be exceptions to every generalisation (and guys like Steve Waugh and Courtney Walsh stand as obvious reminders that it isn't JUST the English who produce late developers)... but the impression remains that on the whole, whatever sport you're in, our guys do just seem to get to where they need to be when they are that bit older than their equivalents from other countries.

Sounds silly.. but it could be as ridiculous as a weather thing: the season for most summer sports is horribly short... there's a portion of every winter that's just too vile even for standard winter sports... and it's not really until you get somewhere near the top of your sport that you start getting the sort of year-round facilities (dedicated indoor swimming pools, tennis courts, running tracks, football pitches, nets and so on) that allow you to really prosper.

Not sure what the answers are here.. but the observation that we are a nation of late developers is not new, and it's not mine: I seem to have been hearing the same sort of arguments from assorted sources for something like 20 years... and still do today.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Nice quote, but in reality, who's going to slag off a teamate who they've just won a world cup with ? Ask a frenchman or an aussie for a alternative view and ..well take and average !

[Rich Greenfield]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

Nice quote, but in reality, who's going to slag off a teamate who they've just won a world cup with ? Ask a frenchman or an aussie for a alternative view and ..well take and average !

No need to go that far, I'm welsh so i'll give you an unbaised opinion. He is an average player with an exceptional foot.
Still wish he was welsh tho.

[Goatman]

If this was an isolated comment - and if he had not made similar comments before and during the tournament - you would have a good point.

On the point of the French, Serge Betsen (my aboslute favourite player in the modern game incidentally!) was so depserate to pressurise Wilkinson that he managed to get himself sin-binned! If you think the French don't rate him - rightly or wrongly - as a major danger man in the team, then we are watching a different game.

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Rich Greenfield

No need to go that far, I'm welsh so i'll give you an unbaised opinion. He is an average player with an exceptional foot.
Still wish he was welsh tho.

I completely agree that the press over rate him, but you'd have to concede (even in your most partisan moments) that his tackling is above average. I have never seen a fly-half either put in so many, or put in such good tackles. His attacking options are very much kick or pass - he doesn't exactly tear teams apart with darting breaks - and so that aspect may well be average, but that still leaves him as a player who is super-human in one part of his game, world class in a second and average in the thrid - result for me is a player who is already world class, and likely to get better!

[R W S]

Originally Posted by Rich Greenfield

No need to go that far, I'm welsh so i'll give you an unbaised opinion. He is an average player with an exceptional foot.
Still wish he was welsh tho.

Unbiased my @rse!!

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by R W S

Unbiased my @rse!!

We should start the Utrecht branch of the Jonny Wilkinson Fan club!

[Rich Greenfield]

Originally Posted by R W S

Unbiased my @rse!!