hi - i'm new here . . .

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

[quote=Rachael]My point, Scott, is that Rooney has bags of potential and no idea what to do with it: right now, on merit, Sheringham and Shearer would both get into the England team ahead of him.. and whilst he may get to play (because we're desperate for someone to partner Owen) he is struggling to assert himself (or even command a place in a starting XI) at Premiership level, let alone international level - he just ain't ready.

I am not the biggest Rooney fan in the world (I am not an England football fan after all). However, whilst you could put together an argument for Shearer ahead of Rooney in the England team on this season's performances there is no way on earth the same can be said for Sheringham. Sheringham is not even in the starting XI for Pompey at the moment (he is on the bench behind Yakubu and Lua Lua)!

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Rachael

My point, Scott, is that Rooney has bags of potential and no idea what to do with it: right now, on merit, Sheringham and Shearer would both get into the England team ahead of him.. and whilst he may get to play (because we're desperate for someone to partner Owen) he is struggling to assert himself (or even command a place in a starting XI) at Premiership level, let alone international level - he just ain't ready.

Rachael

I don't agree at all I'm afraid. How on earth can you justify a statement that says 'on merit, Sheringham and Shearer would both get into the England team ahead of him..' They're not in the England Team and won't be in the England Team, so what point are you making? Are you saying tht Sven is wrong to be playing Rooney - and should in fact go back and play Sheringham and Shearer instead?

You're missing the point altogether here Rachael I'm afraid. Yes I agree that Rooney isn't the finished article, but he's got that rare talent that one flash of brilliance that can turn games, win games, change games, he has that ability - that's why he's being played. Everyone knowledgeable in the footballing world seems to agree that Rooney posesses an extremely rare talent, and a maturity and footballing 'nouse' rarely ever seen in someone so young - all except you of course.

Originally Posted by Rachael

If Rooney is a hobby horse of yours then try Owen: a guy who's seemingly been around for ever but still ain't anywhere near being the striker that everyone thought he had the potential to be. Sure, he's still got what he started with (raw pace following a punted ball into space) and he's starting to develop the control and touch to hold the ball up, beat people with the ball at his feet, deliver decent crosses, strike left footed and so on - but compare him with (say) Reyes or the Man-U Ronaldo (who are both barely out of nappies and who have already cracked most things on that list) and Owen looks like geting there quite a few years late - which is placing huge strains on both Liverpool and England as it means the team is being bent out of shape (formation, players) to accomodate his one-dimensional game.

Rooney's not a hobby horse of mine at all, you just happened to pick a bad example to back up what you were saying! Ok lets talk about Owen if you want to. The one thing Owen has that puts the fear of god into defenders - any defenders anywhere in the world is his blistering pace, you simply don't find many players that have the kind of pace he has, and commands his place in the side on that basis alone, but I don't agree on your other criticism's of him - he's as complete a striker as any of the examples you mentioned, but hs suffered a lot from injury. Reyes is no doubt very good for his age - lets not forget though - he can't get a regular place in the Arsenal team, nor is he a regular spanish international. Less said about Ronaldo the better - he's just a showboater, no real skill, just tricks, any decent defender man marks him and takes him out of the game.

Originally Posted by Rachael

There will always be exceptions to every generalisation (and guys like Steve Waugh and Courtney Walsh stand as obvious reminders that it isn't JUST the English who produce late developers)... but the impression remains that on the whole, whatever sport you're in, our guys do just seem to get to where they need to be when they are that bit older than their equivalents from other countries..

As I've said, I'm not sure I agree - you've not really given many examples to back this up, and I remember the last game England played in soccer - they tried out a whole slew of young players the most promising of which was Jermaine Defoe - he's early 20's.

Scott

[Rachael]

RBLC... I never dare venture near footballing messageboards (make the TMS board at it's worst look positively appealing)... but at the risk of going even further off the subject... do you think the majority of football enthusiast comes even close to understanding football in the way that most cricketer lovers seem to actually understand cricket?

Sure, you get cricket nuts who think power, pace and obscene amounts of turn are the be all and end-all of the game.. but I always get the feeling that most cricket followers do appreciate the subtleties of the various bowling arts, the combination of preparation, judgement, touch and technique that mark out good batting and the nuances of field placings to pressure a specific weakness in a players game.

I've never been very sure that the average football follower is anything like a subtle: tackles are either well timed or fouls, passes are either good or ****... as are crosses, movements into space and shots on goal: the rest.. from the way opposition players are negated, through the way players work for team-mates to the discipline involved in maintaining some sort of "shape"... is just superflous to their appreciation of the game.

I've always believed that understanding is pretty crucial to appreciation.. which is why I prefer radio to TV.. and newspapers to either. A classic case came up in the Rugby (six nations). England had just been stuffed. I watched the game.. and it was fun.. but over my head. In the paper the following day I saw an analysis of the flaws in English play (from a former international)... including (amongst other things) the way our guys failed to react to the kicking-into-space strategy that we had clearly not anticipated.

All of a sudden.. I saw why the game was so much more interesting to watch for that guy! It brought back to me a saying of my uncle: football is good to play, rugby (and, I would add, cricket) is good to watch.

ps. I'm happy to go with the "expert" opinion that Owen is an awesome player (who am I to argue) but am I alone in finding it easier to explain why he ain't the finished article (control, touch, vision, strength, aerial ability, left foot, crosses etc) than why he IS so good (erm, pace into space.. pace into space... pace into space...).

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by R W S

In the history of England football no outfield player has managed more than 106 caps and the England scoring record is 49 (poor Lineker). I cannot be sure but my opinion is substantiated.

R W S

I'ts not substantiated at all. And it wasn't an opinion - you said I was wrong.

You're playing the favourite trick with statistics by saying because it hasn't happen before - it won't happen in the future - you have no idea what's going to happen in the future. Rooney's already broken two of England's records - being the youngest ever player to play for his country and the youngest ever to score for his country - and from that you surmise he won't go on to break any other records. I didn't even say he would go on to play that many games - I said he would probably, yet in your eyes I'm still wrong.

Scott

[R W S]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

R W S

I'ts not substantiated at all. And it wasn't an opinion - you said I was wrong.

You're playing the favourite trick with statistics by saying because it hasn't happen before - it won't happen in the future - you have no idea what's going to happen in the future. Rooney's already broken two of England's records - being the youngest ever player to play for his country and the youngest ever to score for his country - and from that you surmise he won't go on to break any other records. I didn't even say he would go on to play that many games - I said he would probably, yet in your eyes I'm still wrong.

Scott

I'll have one more go at this .. ... ..



Oh, bollocs, forget it. you're right Scott. I'm wrong. Sorry.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Rachael

RBLC... I never dare venture near footballing messageboards (make the TMS board at it's worst look positively appealing)... but at the risk of going even further off the subject... do you think the majority of football enthusiast comes even close to understanding football in the way that most cricketer lovers seem to actually understand cricket?

Rachael

I think you're right on this one though. Your average football fan probably doesn't even understand the offside law, let alone any other subtleties to the game.

But I do think you're being unfair to Owen - Owen's style of play suits Englands style of play - its no coincidence that Owens partner in Liverpool club football, is also the same partner he often gets when playing for England - because the partnership works well. You often get this 'big guy' 'fast little guy' in football working together - Heskey and Owen work together as partners - the little guy feeding off the big guy, and the little guy darting about in the box pulling defenders with him freeing up space for other players - its not that much different to two bowlers bowling from each end in Cricket.

Scott

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Rachael

Stats in cricket can tell you almost everything about a player, sometimes include some of the subtle nuances that apply to certain players. Decent write ups from expert opinions also help. How players are out shows alot about them and socres they make or wickets taken.

However, nothing that has ever been written or any stats will convince me owne is anything but a cheesy goal poacher who cant control a ball, or pass it, or knock it down as he's a short ****. when i watch him play, yes he looks for space but, when the only ball he can react to is an over th top smack from beckahm or gerrard it makes me want to cry. He's turned heskey, who had far more potential than owen into a strker whose sole thought is not "can i score" but "wheres micheal". I hope to see rooney and that kid from spurs (name escapes) do the buisness. Old heads ? None up front, or anywhere else. I think the younger players just happen to be better (although inexplicably shorter). Thats just how talent is diveded up at the moment. Cricket is the other way round I think.

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

R W S

I'ts not substantiated at all. And it wasn't an opinion - you said I was wrong.

You're playing the favourite trick with statistics by saying because it hasn't happen before - it won't happen in the future - you have no idea what's going to happen in the future. Rooney's already broken two of England's records - being the youngest ever player to play for his country and the youngest ever to score for his country - and from that you surmise he won't go on to break any other records. I didn't even say he would go on to play that many games - I said he would probably, yet in your eyes I'm still wrong.

Scott

And you are playing the favourite trick of the sceptic in refusing to see the difference between likelyhood and certainty.

I have never watched a football international, and don't intend to, but if the facts above are correct the only conclusion that is rational is that Rooney could break all these records, BUT IS UNLIKELY TO. He is more likely to break them than most of his contemporaries, but not much more so if Owen is also a similarly young debutant. You are both neither right or wrong, neither has more substantiation than the other and you are both simply guessing.

[R W S]

I've just been on the phone to a friend at Victor Chandler (bookmakers) and their 'speicial bets' department are willing to offer 33-1 against Rooney getting more than 114 caps.Minimun bet is 100 quid.

Both guessing maybe, but, again, I suggest that it is highly unlikley. And I'll put my money where my mouth is.

Fancy these odds Scott?

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Frankly with all the football we play (although if he stays at everton we can be safe in the knowledge he'll not be playing in europe) and the injuries players get, i'd have thought those odds would be higher.