Today's Match Eng v WI 7th ODI

[Mike_Hock]

I dread to think where he puts it when he is bowling flat out, he struggles for consistency when he is bowling well within himself. Could slip in the odd 90mph ball as a suprise! Now that would be funny.

[Mike]

Rachael, I just viewed the Sky highlights of our bowling and only saw Read close to the wicket to Batty (no surprise) and Clarke bowling to Sarwan near the end of the innings. Just as well he wasn't standing up to the wicket when Lara nicked it otherwise the catch wouldn't have been taken.

[Kirsty Harris]

Well, a nice end to a good tour! Shame about the rained-off games, though...

Collingwood and Read played good little knock's to end the game. Still puzzled about Clarke coming in at 4 - very odd!!

Only a couple of weeks till we play New Zealand in the 1st test of the summer..what a crazy bit of scheduling!!!

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Yup. Does bugger all with it (no sideways movement, little variation, and for all I know, consistently in the wrong areas) but he IS mighty quick.

Rachael

I think he's dropped his pace right down to almost medium, to get the control and accuracy he needs in ODI games, he was bowling at around mid 70's yesterday and has a curious slower ball that comes right out of the back of the hand and almost loops up before it comes down.

Originally Posted by Rachael

I was very much on the guy's case until I realised just how young he is: why the hell should he be Thorpe-like with the bat and Gough-like with the ball when he's barely started playing cricket?

That's just it - he IS young - 22 or 23 I think and he's still developing his game. You can't expect players of that age to be world beaters but he does have immense talent with both bat and ball and I sincerely hope England perservere with him, specifically in the ODI game.

Originally Posted by Rachael

I'm not going to shed tears if he disappears without trace.. and I'd much rather see any of a dozen other players really prosper.... but if Troy C can work his miracles on the bowling front (to the point where Surrey will at least consider giving him the ball occasionally)... then as a 5 bowler who bats a bit (not got great hopes on that front: power-house not class act) he could be right for pitches where we want 5 seamers.

It's interesting you say he's a bowler first and bats a bit, according to the Sky commentators yesterday - he's a batsman first and foremost who bowls a bit and who is still developing the bowling side of his game.

I've tended to reserve comment on Rikki Clarke up untill now, because I've not really seen enough of him to really comment. I have in that time seen numerous people really slating Clarke, and whilst I've been tempted to spring to his defence - I have as I said - reserved comment. One thing I do know - Clarke has immense talent with both bat and ball, only time will tell if that talent will be realised. I also know the Fletcher thinks very highly of him - not that, that makes any difference, but I think you will see Clarke around for some time yet.

Scott

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Still puzzled about Clarke coming in at 4 - very odd!!

Kirsty

I didn't find it at all puzzling, surprising yes, puzzling no.

Clarke so far in the ODI games has batted down the order, and never really had a chance to show what he could do, or be given the opportunity to bat at a time in the game that allowed him to 'see himself in'. He was always coming in at a time when England needed runs and quickly - that means you have to throw the bat a bit and you can't tell the capabilities of someone who has to do that.

Bringing Clarke in higher in the order was purely to 1/ Give him a chance to see what he could do 2/ Let him bat at a time when England wern't having to score runs quickly 3/ Allow him to 'see himself' in and not bat under pressure.

England are still experimenting with their ODI side, they're building one for the 2007 WC, you should expect to see things like this going on while they take a look at players in competitive match situations.

Scott

[Rachael]

Scott - I wasn't suggesting that Clarke was selected a bowler who can bat a bit: he's clearly (for whatever reason) a batsman for Surrey (who have hardly let him see the ball in the field)... and the received wisdom (that he's touring to pressure Flintoff as the batting all rounder) strikes me as unquestionable.

My point is rather that, like Freddie, he's another thug with the bat... which I don't mind too much in bowling all rounders (which is what Freddie seems to be turning into) but just depresses me in guys who are supposedly first and foremost batsmen.

So.. getting the story straight: if Troy C can work wonders with Clarke and actually get him into the ODI team for his bowling alone.. then I'll welcome his continued presence.. but as I see nothing but a thug with the bat (and one who's shown very little sign of being able to do anything BUT blast it)... I'd rather he was just quiety written off as a wielder of the willow specialist.

OK?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

My point is rather that, like Freddie, he's another thug with the bat... which I don't mind too much in bowling all rounders (which is what Freddie seems to be turning into)

Rachael

I think Freddy has always been a bowler all rounder who has learned to bat a bit better,this must be the case ,he is better than most front line bowlers in England.

[Rachael]

Um - Freddie has certainly not "always" been a bowling all-rounder: he considered himself a batsman who could bowl a bit for a very long time... only added any real control to his bowling within the past year or so.. and only added any real wicket taking threat (slight though it is) in the recent Test series against the WI.

Bowling wise.. Freddie is doing OK. I don't think you can put it much stronger than that... and unless he sorts out a ball that goes the other way you may NEVER be able to put it any stronger than that: getting anywhere as a fast-medium strike bowler without that alternative delivery is damn near impossible.

Better than other English bowlers? Not really: get him back in England in conditions that actually give a bowler a chance to shine.. and I think you'll find every county has a bowler or two who is more accomplished. I'm not talking guys like Bicknell and Johnson (who, once there's sideways movement to be had, are streets ahead of Flintoff).. but ordinary, everyday guys like Silverwood, Ealham, Saggers, Cork and Mullally - none of whom will get a look in because Freddie's batting is considered superior.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

he considered himself a batsman who could bowl a bit and only added any real wicket taking threat (slight though it is) in the recent Test series against the WI.



Better than other English bowlers? Not really: get him back in England in conditions that actually give a bowler a chance to shine.. and I think you'll find every county has a bowler or two who is more accomplished. I'm not talking guys like Bicknell and Johnson (who, once there's sideways movement to be had, are streets ahead of Flintoff).. but ordinary, everyday guys like Silverwood, Ealham, Saggers, Cork and Mullally - none of whom will get a look in because Freddie's batting is considered superior.

I stand corrected about Freddy starting as a batting all rounder,his bowling stats would have been a lot better in the West Indies,if catches of his bowling were held on to.

The same story in England,I cant remember a bowler having as many catches dropped of his bowling as Freddy.

I take your point about Bicknell and Johnson(providing conditions are right).

The other guys you mentioned Freddy will always sideline,Silverwood may be the better bowler at the moment,but he cant bat.
If Freddy develops a delivery that can move away,he will then be up at the top.

[Whips_off_the_bails]

Freddie (and the England management) regard him as a batting all-rounder. Duncan Fletcher reminded him of this fact before his first-innings century in Antigua that kept England in the game. Here's the direct quote:

""The coach said before the Test that I'm a batting all-rounder, so it was important I scored runs and it's just nice to get someone in the situation the match is in."

Obviously his bowling is also coming on in both levels of the game. In fact, at one-day level I'd go as far to say that he is the complete player now. His control as a bowler - he was able to bowl maidens in the late stages of the Windies runfests at the weekend - his ability to come in at no. 5 and build an innings or to smash it out of the park, his brilliant slip-catching, and his fantastic arm (that run-out yesterday effectively stopped WI doing what they'd been able to with impunity in the previous matches: stealing quick singles to mid-wicket): all this make him the first name on the score sheet in England's one-day side (with Trescothick the only other automatic choice).