Cricket changes poll

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Goatman

I also dont' want to get into an EU debate, and think its innappropriate here outside of its impact on cricket. One interesting thing I heard through NL news however (they are very worried about the influx problem here, as it is a very small and tremenoudsly overpacked country already) was that GB was 7th on the list of countries those that said they were considering leaving the new accession countries to work in. After Belgium.

Goatman

Yes, this isn't really the forum for it, but I'd just like to add a couple of things. Regarding population density's England is one of the msot densely populated countries in the world (capita per sq mile) and London and the surrounding areas is about 4th or 5th most densely populated Capital's in the world (behind New Delhi, Mexico City and New York City, capita per sq mile) London has more than half the entire population of Australia in it (in figures not Australians!).

Regarding GB being 7th on the list of places people want to work in - I find that hard to beleive and would certainly like to see the survey that came from.

Going back to the EU Cricket Team - how does this come about? The ICC? Do the ICC need to float this idea or does it need to come from the Countries themselves?

Scott

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Goatman

Yes, I see your concerns and agree with them. It does take quite a lot to achieve Test Status for an individual country and as you rightly say, it would be almost impossible for any of those individual countries to acheive it on their own.


I think the first step for these countries would be to set up a proper league system where the top teams from each country start to play each other in a Divisional League system and take it on from there.


I share some of Ernests concerns regrding the EU and 'their legal-law-passing-nuttyness' but really can't see how any of this would impact on the game of Cricket as you rightly say. Sadly the very mention of the words EU, Member States, Soveriegnty, Laws, Constitution, ERM sends the majority of 'sensible' Brits into apoplexy and hate the very thought of European 'meddlers' interfering in anything in this Country.

I don't want to get into a big debate about Europe

Scott

I have read the follow up post, between you and Goatman,very persuasive to the unimpassioned,and the undecided.

Cash is a problem facing countries who aspire to have Test cricket status,and I think it was Goatman,who quoted Kenya.well what is the answer there is obviously not enough support to generate enough revenue even for the basics,could be they could form a loose alliance with neighboring countries,no dannger of political clashes here.

Goatmans Plan that England should remain an entity in its own right,and that teams like Scotland,Wales,Holland,and even France,and others,should form a team called Europe is a very dangerous precedent,the very thought sends shudders down my spine,I can see the end result,not yet but maybe in ten years of so,.

The people responsible for sport in Europe,(and we are getting more and more,entangled in it,that is why it is permissable to bring it up on this board)would look at the state of the England team,then look at the poor European team in comparison,and conclude ,If we merged the England team,with the rest of the Europe team...........Then maybe!!!!!

Europe (not England) would be able to compete with the best in the world.Europe V Australia,would sound very attractive to them,and they could play the likes of India,New Zealand and the West Indies ect,on equal terms It would happen

Goatman,and I will say again I respect is opinion,though I dont agree with it,he cited the West Indies as an eg,like I said before,there are no political obstructions,to such a united cricket team,they are politicaly apart,they need to join up to make a viable cricket team.

Ernest.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Ernest

Whilst I am extremely reluctant to start arguing someone else's case, I have enough problems arguing my own opinoins here, let alone someone elses lol, I do feel that this is a good idea.

Originally Posted by ernest

Goatmans Plan that England should remain an entity in its own right,and that teams like Scotland,Wales,Holland,and even France,and others,should form a team called Europe is a very dangerous precedent,the very thought sends shudders down my spine,I can see the end result,not yet but maybe in ten years of so,.

England needs to remain completely separate from all this for the simple reason they don't need anyone elses help to achieve Test Status, they have it and have a reasonably well developed game here. The EU countries do not, hence the benefit of them joining together.

Why is it a 'dangerous precedent'? What is it about this you're not happy with? In Cricket Terms it is not a precedent anyway - but it may been seen as one in Europe but what is wrong with that?

Originally Posted by ernest

The people responsible for sport in Europe,(and we are getting more and more,entangled in it,that is why it is permissable to bring it up on this board)would look at the state of the England team,then look at the poor European team in comparison,and conclude ,If we merged the England team,with the rest of the Europe team...........Then maybe!!!!!

What people? Governing bodies alredy exist for soccer in Europe - UEFA and Worldwide - FIFA, and they don't think this now - why would they think it in the future? A Cricket governing body also exists worldwide - ICC.

Originally Posted by ernest

Europe (not England) would be able to compete with the best in the world.Europe V Australia,would sound very attractive to them,and they could play the likes of India,New Zealand and the West Indies ect,on equal terms It would happen

No they wouldn't. The EU side would just been seen as another Test Side, no different from England or Australia or India. And if you think they're suddenly going to become world-beaters over-night, I think you're greatly mistaken, I think an EU Side would be as good as a current Bangladesh side at the beginning.

Scott

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Goatman

Yes, this isn't really the forum for it, but I'd just like to add a couple of things. Regarding population density's England is one of the msot densely populated countries in the world (capita per sq mile) and London and the surrounding areas is about 4th or 5th most densely populated Capital's in the world (behind New Delhi, Mexico City and New York City, capita per sq mile) London has more than half the entire population of Australia in it (in figures not Australians!).

Regarding GB being 7th on the list of places people want to work in - I find that hard to beleive and would certainly like to see the survey that came from.

Going back to the EU Cricket Team - how does this come about? The ICC? Do the ICC need to float this idea or does it need to come from the Countries themselves?

Scott

I'm afraid I can't even tell you which program it was on, or whether they interviewed 30,000 people from the new countires or just one pensioner in a bar in Bratislava. I found it amusing that GB was ranked behind Belgium in thier eyes, thats all! Bit embarrassing really.

I think the ICC would have to drive it, but it would need support from the "big" nations involved - SCO, IRE and NL. I don't think it will ever happen to be honest, so Ernests worries will never be tested.

Ernest - one final attempt to convince you. If the Europe team included Norway, Iceland or Switzerland, EU would have absolutely no jurisdiction as these countries are not members. Would you still be worried then? There are some 22 clubs in Switzerland. There are 14 teams in the Oslo league (though 90% of players are of Asian descent...). both are affiliate members, and thus have similar status to Portugal and so on. I reckon the Noggins would be happy to have a chance at playing test cricket, and would be OK with joining the throng and the same with the Swiss.......

In Iceland, they sometimes play on the galciers I hear. Might be an interesting new surface for test bowlers!

[Goatman]

Also, juts to set Ernests mind at rest, I'd like to add that I never suggested Wales should be paired off - only that the ENG team might be made to have a more appropriate name. Which in any case would be more, well, appropriate anyway and should happen even if a Europe team never appears!

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Ernest

Whilst I am extremely reluctant to start arguing someone else's case, I have enough problems arguing my own opinoins here, let alone someone elses lol, I do feel that this is a good idea.



No they wouldn't. The EU side would just been seen as another Test Side, no different from England or Australia or India. And if you think they're suddenly going to become world-beaters over-night, I think you're greatly mistaken, I think an EU Side would be as good as a current Bangladesh side at the beginning.

Scott

Scott,with respect,

I dont think you understood my post,or I do not understand yours.

What I dont like about a team called Europe,and I will put this in a nut shell,We are becomeing politicaly intertwined with Europe,and this were I dont understand your quote,but I can use it.

No a cicket team called Europe would only be as good,as say Bangladesh at the begining,that is not what bothers me,we may,and I think, would become assimilated in a greater European team,that would be different.

I have found it best not to dabble were Europe is concerned,I wouls not support a team called Europe.

You cant compare cricket with football,as European football has the strongest nation states in the world,no one could fuse them together.

I was not trying to get me to support my view,yours was the correct one to put in my own penneth,after reading ,you and goatmans posts...This in answer to the 1st part of your post...

Ernest

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by ernest

Scott,with respect,

I dont think you understood my post,or I do not understand yours.

What I dont like about a team called Europe,and I will put this in a nut shell,We are becomeing politicaly intertwined with Europe,and this were I dont understand your quote,but I can use it.

So, you don't like the idea of a Europe cricket team because you don't like the EU????

Originally Posted by ernest

No a cicket team called Europe would only be as good,as say Bangladesh at the begining,that is not what bothers me,we may,and I think, would become assimilated in a greater European team,that would be different.

If we were "assimilated", the Eu team would be the ENg team, as ENG players are so much better. So what would be the point? In any case, you are yet to counter my arguments as to why they CAN'T assimilate ENG into Europe.

Originally Posted by ernest

I have found it best not to dabble were Europe is concerned,I wouls not support a team called Europe.

So, you don't like the idea of a Europe cricket team because you don't like the EU???? You've said that before. Anyway, no-one is asking you to support Europe!

Originally Posted by ernest

You cant compare cricket with football,as European football has the strongest nation states in the world,no one could fuse them together.

If EU forced ENG into Europe, they would by the same stroke force England, Scotland and Ireland into GB. Even if football is so very different - something you have said several times, but are yet to convince me of - changing cricket would change football.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Goatman

So, you don't like the idea of a Europe cricket team because you don't like the EU????

No I dont like the idea of a Europe cricket team,because I dont like the EU,I will openly admit it,but I am a realist one day it will happen,this is were sport and polatics,are allowed to mix,because one could follow the other,if the continent of Europe is united,it follows then there would be a team called Europe.

Originally Posted by Goatman

if we were "assimilated", the Eu team would be the ENg team, as ENG players are so much better. So what would be the point? In any case, you are yet to counter my arguments as to why they CAN'T assimilate ENG into Europe.

Yes Goatman you have hit the nail on the head,if we were "assimilated",yes the EU team,would be the England team.Not sure I get your next bit"as Engand players are so much better,So what would be the point"if I read your meaning right,the point would be,it would follow that if the England cricket team was Assimilated,they would then become European players,and make Europe a credible team that ,the ICC would recognise.,to your last point,why cant they assimilate England into Europe,The answer to this has to be political,it can be no other way,

I and lots others,dont want to be assimilated into Europe,and then there are others that do.The powers that be can assimilate England into Europe,my answer is ,yes they can,if enough people want them to,but I for one dont.

Originally Posted by Goatman

;So, you don't like the idea of a Europe cricket team because you don't like the EU???? You've said that before. Anyway, no-one is asking you to support Europe!

Well good point Goatman,weather i wished to support Europe,depends on weather there is a seperate England team,if so that is a different matter,bur if England had been absorbed into A Europe team,I would not wish to support it,if it come to that ,,,no one has ever asked me to support England.

Originally Posted by Goatman

If EU forced ENG into Europe, they would by the same stroke force England, Scotland and Ireland into GB. Even if football is so very different - something you have said several times, but are yet to convince me of - changing cricket would change football.

Changing cricket would not change football,football is to big,and the big teams are in their own counries,they could not be merged it would not be possible.they have the right idea,they play in European tournements,I am all for that.

I could in a changing world live with England becoming UK,or Great Britain.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by honestbharani

Well, after reading the posts of Goatman and Ernest, I get the feeling that perhaps a European team might not work. I mean, if the EU interferes in everything as Ernest said it does, then it might be a good idea for it to not happen. But if they won't interfere in cricketing things, then it might be a good idea. Because, atleast that way, the game will get more popular in these countries......

Hi Honestbarani

Part of the trouble is ,you have fledgling teams like,Holland,Canada,you see them all at the world cup,as you will have gathered my opinions on England,are based as much on politics,as cricket,although I think the two are inseperable.

There are small teams all over the world,who would love Test status,in Europe Holland,Africa Kenya,I could see how an alliance would help these small countries,I would accept in my mind a minor international league,based one Zones,with a intercontinental final,and if the winner was strong enough,they could enjoy league status.cant see it though.

You could put the countries into groups,say Norway,Sweden,Denmark,Finland and call it Scandinavia,same with the lower countries,Holland,belgiem,France,I dont think any of these groups could get ebough support to get them into the Test arena.
I am staying away from polatics,when I say,all these groups put togerher,even with the help of Scotland and Ireland,would still not be strong enough support.
I am not being political(just stating fact,merge all these counries together and it would be called Europe)

How would it survive what credability would it have without England.

To put it into football terms,Could you see Preston,Bolton,Blackburn,comeing together to take on the likes of Man U,or Liverpool,under the name Lancashire Unt,no of course not...

[Goatman]

But Ernest, I dont' want to be assimilated either! I think you'll not find many that do in any of the EU countries, and cetainly not in GB. The people of NL wouldn't countenance it, they have buckets of national pride and I can't see them giving any of that up. The Danes and Swede have even rejected the Euro - if you suggested they wanted to give up sovereignty, they would laugh in your face. The new accession countires want to be part of the New World Order as they see it, but if you think that the Slovenes are going to give up the sovereignty they have just got for the first time in 2000 years, then you've got another thing coming. I've spent a month or so down there for most of the last 10 years, and can assure you that there is no chance of that. They recognise that they are better off part of a large alliance, they already have the Euro in all but name (due to the asset stripping the Serbs managed when they left, the country was basically bankrupt when it became independant. The Germans bailed them out by handing over an obscene amount of Deutchmarks - the Tolar from that point on was simply worth X Deutchmarks, and is now simply worth X Euros). To stay out of the EU is a laughable proposition for them. Assimilation is a very different proposition though, and is already causing a significant upsurge of nationalism now they are part of the club, which is a crying shame as they have a culture that is uniquely welcoming to the outsider. This is reflected in several other new countries. Expansion has numberless bad points, but one thing it has done is make federalisation virtually impossible. Powers That Be or not, we will not be assimilated for the forseeable future and it is far more likely that the club disintegrates than becomes the federal superstate that haunts your dreams. I don't see why such a willo the wisp fear should influence the Europe cricket debate.

You still have not countered any of the arguments above about why it would be impossible to merge ENG into an EU team, and just insist that it will over and again. I'm sorry, your going to have to do a lot better than that to convince me. On the football point, the merger in cricket WOULD influence football because the law cannot distinguish between sports on the basis of finance. The "handball" ruling has effected every sport in Europe, dispite the fact that it is only played by a small number of countries in central Europe. Economically, handballl is even smaller than cricket. And yet you insist that the law can act differently in the case you fear. It defies reason. As you say - football is too big to change, and so no ruling that would so infleunce it could be passed, whether the sport be cricket, snooker, handball or Bavarian Toad Racing. For ENG to remain independant in football, is cannot be forced into a larger unit in any other sport by the law.

My point regarding "whats the point" is twofold. Firstly, to make Europe a test nation and then to assimilate ENG would be to give the Dutch and others the possibility to play test cricket, and then to immediately take it away. The cricket boards of the EU would be united against such a move, and I see no reason for thier leaders to push through a motion that is unpopular with all over usch a trivial matter. Secondly, I see no motivation for the EU to make such a move. Really Ernest, they wouldn't care if the Europe cricket team was a joke. They certainly wouldn't care enough to go to the effort of drafting legislation. How you think that the other nations would rather be represented by the second rate English players we see in test cricket today, rather than third rate players from thier own countries defeats me. The dutch have plenty of national pride you know - how else do you explain thier tendancy to paint themselves bright orange and have massive street parties on thier Queens birthday! Even if they cared, no-one in the EU would have any desire to push through legislation of the kind you are worreid about. they would much rather see Feiko Kloppenburg get a duck than Marcus Trescothick if the team was meant to be representing them, just as many ENG supporters would rather see a homegrown player such as Paul Collingwood in the ENG team rather than a defecter like Kevin Pieterson, even if they are not quite as good. Imagine if an entire squad of Australians suddenly made themselvs availbale to play for ENG, if only we spent a couple of years and a few million quid changing a law or to. Would our selectors pressure the government to make such a change? Would anyone else? Would our government do anything if they did? No, on all counts.

If Norway or Switzerland were included - and I don't see whay they should not be - EU would have no jurisdiction, just as it has no jursidiction over the operation of the commonwealth. Your fears could not come true in that instance. Would you still be against the plan then?