Who is pushing for England places now?

[Tom Partis]

Smith is also one to watch and when in good form, has an elegant, almost Goweresque class about him, but he's in poor form so far this season. He should get another chance though, as 5 innings on tricky wickets against SA does not really constitute a fair opportunity in my book. infact, i thought we'd see him back before Key, but it doesn't look that way now.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Tom Partis

Smith is also one to watch and when in good form, has an elegant, almost Goweresque class about him, but he's in poor form so far this season. He should get another chance though, as 5 innings on tricky wickets against SA does not really constitute a fair opportunity in my book. infact, i thought we'd see him back before Key, but it doesn't look that way now.

I think with regret we have seen the last of Key,and Smith>
ernest

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by ernest

I think with regret we have seen the last of Key,and Smith>
ernest

Yep, their ship has sailed, so to speak. It's tough on them really, because once your chance has passed it is hard to get another one, no matter how well you play. The same is true for many fine county players....but still, the consulation is that even if they haven't played for England as much as they would have liked, at least they HAVE made it...that is more than most cricketers achieve.

[Tom Partis]

i don't think Key could have any genuine complaints if he didn't play again, cos he really did make a hash of his chance. as for Smith, i think he was very unfortunate not to be persisted with, and can feel justifiably aggrieved if he doesn't get another shot at a place in the team. but at the moment, it seems far more likely that it will be Key who is given a second go.

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Tom Partis

i don't think Key could have any genuine complaints if he didn't play again, cos he really did make a hash of his chance. as for Smith, i think he was very unfortunate not to be persisted with, and can feel justifiably aggrieved if he doesn't get another shot at a place in the team. but at the moment, it seems far more likely that it will be Key who is given a second go.

Tom, I can't honestly see either of them getting a second go - the likes of Collingwood, Strauss, Pieterson are all pushing for places in the side at the moment, and there are several others waiting in the wings form the A side and Under 19's side. I don't think the current England set up is likely to go back to a player who had a decent run in the side and didn't take his chance. I know Key is in fine form at the moment, but that does not change the fact that he has had his chance, and, as you say, made a hash of it! It is harsh, but that is life for you! Besides which, Key clearly DOES feel he had cause to be aggrieved judging by all the complaining he did about being dropped!

Smith may have only had a few games, but he averaged only 17.4, and although with some players you might give them a longer run, he never showed any spark that indicated he might be worth a longer look (Flintoff may have struggled early on, but there was always something about him..).

[Tom Partis]

i'm in favour of putting Strauss and Pieterson and maybe Collingwood (although i'm not convinced by his prowess in the longer form of the game) into the team before Key is even considered again. to be honest, Key is not in that good nick apart from the two centuries against NZ - if those two centuries had come against a county side, next to nothing would have been made of it. as it was, it came against our test opponents and immediately, people on this board and on the bbc start bringing his name into the frame again. I actually prefer Ed Smith as a batsman on his day - Key probably has more the makings of a test player, but some of Smith's strokeplay is nothing short of exquisite. Unfortunately he's in bad touch at the moment but i hope that he regains his form later in the season, by which time i will be done with being a penniless student, and will be able to afford both time and money to go and watch Kent play, and hopefully, Smith excel himself once more. I agree that Smith does not have the buzz about him that Flintoff had at first, but the fact remains that if selectors deem a batsman good enough to get in the team, they should be given more than 5 innings.

So to summarise, I don't believe that Key should be in the team for this series, and if Strauss and Pieterson perform to the extent that they are expected to, i don't see him coming back ever. As for Smith, i don't see him coming back either, but i do think that once put in the side, he should have been given longer to see if he sank or swam.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Tom, I can't honestly see either of them getting a second go - the likes of Collingwood, Strauss, Pieterson are all pushing for places in the side at the moment.

Smith may have only had a few games, but he averaged only 17.4, and although with some players you might give them a longer run, he never showed any spark that indicated he might be worth a longer look (Flintoff may have struggled early on, but there was always something about him..).

Hi Kirsty,

Flintoff is one on his own Kirsty,

he makes others like Ed Smith,look that poor,even though their starting averages,where similler,I am not a great believer in statistics except for a guide,I am not sure about Collingwood yet,hope I am wrong,we will see this week.

Enjoy Lords
goodnight
Ernest

[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Tom, I can't honestly see either of them getting a second go - the likes of Collingwood, Strauss, Pieterson are all pushing for places in the side at the moment, and there are several others waiting in the wings form the A side and Under 19's side.

Bear in mind though that a)Nasser will be retiring soon b) Thorpe only has a couple of years left c) Butcher won't be so far behind. That's three vacancies in the middle order. If we only play Flintoff and three seamers, that is an extra batting slot. So there are quite feasibly four batting slots up for grabs in the nearish future. Even if Strauss, Pieterson and Collingwood make three of them theirs, there's still possible room for someone else, and ti's not guaranteed that those three will cement their places. And of course, there's always room for someone to come after another player's been injured - as we have seen this week with Vaughan. Things change suddenly in all sports - last year against SA, things looked absolutely desperate on the seam bowling front. Who would have guessed that eight months later, four of the five seamers who took on SA in the fourth Test would have been discarded and their replacements would blow the WI away? I mean, for god's sake, we were so desperate last year, we called up Glen Chapple! How far down the list of seamers must he be now? The same thing could happen, but in reverse in the batting line-up (though admittedly, the England management have always been more likely to drop bowlers after a poor performance than batsmen, and bowlers are more injury prone). Key is young. If he works hard, loses some weight and stops mouthing off in the press, he could well get another chance. Ed Smith is not so young, but it's still possible he could get another crack of the whip. I personally would like to see Ian Bell play above those two. Only a couple of seasons ago, he was the great hope of English cricket - there were talks about fast-tracking him into the England set-up.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by sostenurter

If we only play Flintoff and three seamers, that is an extra batting slot. So there are quite feasibly four batting slots up for grabs in the nearish future. Even if Strauss, Pieterson and Collingwood make three of them theirs, there's still possible room for someone else, and ti's not guaranteed that those three will cement their places.

sostenurter

I really don't think you can assume that 'spinner' slot will go to a batsman. They may well play an extra batsman at Lords (in my mind they won't risk it) but that won't always be the case. England clearly want to play the tried and trusted formula of 3 specialist seamers + an allrounder seamer + a spinner. The questions in my mind are who should that spinner slot go to and is the batting strong enough to withstand a specialist spinner who won't contribute with the bat?

What I am sure about is that spinner slot will not go to a batsman in the majority of situations.

Scott

[Tom Partis]

Originally Posted by sostenurter

I mean, for god's sake, we were so desperate last year, we called up Glen Chapple! How far down the list of seamers must he be now?

funnily enough i think chapple could have done a job for england, at least temporarily. i rate him higher than some seamers who've worn an england shirt over the years - mullaly, sidebottom, ormond etc