Geraint Jones smacks a ton off the Kiwi's

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Notts Exile

Sorry Scott, but the last Test in St John's proved nothing with regards to keeping. He barely had anything to do, and on the first day looked quite untidy. The ball rarely deviated and keeping on that surface even Boucher would have looked at home.

Notts

Well I go on what I see, and conceding only 4 byes in a 700+ run innings involving 2 and a half days out in the field is pretty high quality keeping in my mind. Whatever chances came his way - he took. I don't think Read would have done any better.

There's no doubt in anyone's mind that Read is the better gloveman, he's just that little bit sharper and more experienced than Jones and must be considered as one of the best glovemen in the world right now. But as has been pointed out countless times now, that just isn't enough in modern Test Cricket, and the WK has to make some positive contribution with the bat, which Read never did. Personally, and going on what I've seen of Jones so far - he's not that far behind Read in the glove department, but as you say he's clearly superior with the bat - and thats what England need right now.

Fletcher openly admits that he want's a long tail, he wants batting in depth, he doesnt want the batting to stop at Fllintoff, which with Read in the side it pretty much did. People wonder why Giles continues to be selected, with his ability to contribute useful runs down the order - its not that difficult to work out is it? Read was fast becoming a liability with the bat down the order, it's no surprise at all Giles was there to help prop up the lower order batting.

Now that the batting has been strengthened by Jones, they can turn their attention to the spinner slot and if necessary bring in a spinner that can take wickets but can't bat.

Scott

[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Notts

Well I go on what I see, and conceding only 4 byes in a 700+ run innings involving 2 and a half days out in the field is pretty high quality keeping in my mind. Whatever chances came his way - he took. I don't think Read would have done any better.

There's no doubt in anyone's mind that Read is the better gloveman, he's just that little bit sharper and more experienced than Jones and must be considered as one of the best glovemen in the world right now. But as has been pointed out countless times now, that just isn't enough in modern Test Cricket, and the WK has to make some positive contribution with the bat, which Read never did. Personally, and going on what I've seen of Jones so far - he's not that far behind Read in the glove department, but as you say he's clearly superior with the bat - and thats what England need right now.

Fletcher openly admits that he want's a long tail, he wants batting in depth, he doesnt want the batting to stop at Fllintoff, which with Read in the side it pretty much did. People wonder why Giles continues to be selected, with his ability to contribute useful runs down the order - its not that difficult to work out is it? Read was fast becoming a liability with the bat down the order, it's no surprise at all Giles was there to help prop up the lower order batting.

Now that the batting has been strengthened by Jones, they can turn their attention to the spinner slot and if necessary bring in a spinner that can take wickets but can't bat.

Scott

Agree with nearly everything you say there Scott - but I had to find something to disagree with
You said that the keeper is required to contribute runs in "modern Test cricket" and this something many people, pro or anti- Read seem to believe - that in the good/bad old days keepers were picked entirely on their skill with the gloves. In fact, keepers have always been required to score runs. One of the greatest keepers ever, George Duckworth, played only 14 Tests for England (and most of these against lesser nations) because he was a poor batsman and because England had Les Ames to call on - someone who could keep and score runs. There's a very good article about this in the current Wisden. http://statserver.cricket.org/almana...=alm;alm=17490

I'd also like to point out that it's easier to teach someone how to keep than it is to teach them how to bat. If Jones keeps working on his batting, I think he will improve and reach Read's standard. I don't think Read will ever reach Jones's standard with the bat. Duringhis time in the England side, Alec Stewart improved from being a pretty average keeper to quite a good one. Given that Jones is starting from a much greater skills base than Stewart, I'd back him to become one of the best keepers in the world.

[Pete]

"People wonder why Giles continues to be selected, with his ability to contribute useful runs down the order - its not that difficult to work out is it? Read was fast becoming a liability with the bat down the order, it's no surprise at all Giles was there to help prop up the lower order batting."

They should just stick in an extra bat then. 1. he ain't going to take no wickets and 2. he can't even keep it tight at the moment. In the West Indies he must have bowled about 15 overs at most?? I think the only time his batting is usefull is when he's taking wickets, otherwise you can just stick in someone else who'll score heavier.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by sostenurter

Agree with nearly everything you say there Scott - but I had to find something to disagree with

sostenurter

Fair enough!

Glad you agree with most of it though. Perhaps I should have said 'even more so in modern test cricket...', but it's a minor point, I take on board your view that it's always been this way. As you rightly point out - there are plenty of precendents here, which makes it even more amazing how people can't see that Wicket Keepers need to contribute with the bat, it's a bit of a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

I think a lot of people miss the point that the WK slot and the spinner are currently linked together, and you can't fix one without the other being fixed. There was no way they would play a spinner who couldnt bat with Read in the side...

Scott

[Whips_off_the_bails]

Originally Posted by Hampshire Guy

"People wonder why Giles continues to be selected, with his ability to contribute useful runs down the order - its not that difficult to work out is it? Read was fast becoming a liability with the bat down the order, it's no surprise at all Giles was there to help prop up the lower order batting."

They should just stick in an extra bat then. 1. he ain't going to take no wickets and 2. he can't even keep it tight at the moment. In the West Indies he must have bowled about 15 overs at most?? I think the only time his batting is usefull is when he's taking wickets, otherwise you can just stick in someone else who'll score heavier.

Part of the reason Giles bowled so few overs in Carribean was that the WI kept self-destructing in their second innings.

He was ill for the Antigua match, where he would have bowled at least as many overs as Batty did.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

But would he do any better than batty did ?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

But would he do any better than batty did ?

Are Batty ang Giles the onny spinners in England,or the British isles for that matter?There not that brill are they?

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by ernest

Are Batty ang Giles the onny spinners in England,or the British isles for that matter?There not that brill are they?

Ernest

Have you followed any of this thread recently? I don't think you have, otherwise you wouldnt ask this question.

Scott

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Ernest

Have you followed any of this thread recently? I don't think you have, otherwise you wouldnt ask this question.

Scott

Scott yes I have.

I think it is a fair question for this reason,Giles has kept his place because he can bat a bit if needed,it is said we cant afford to have a spinner and a wicketkeeper who cant bat.Now we are supposed to have a better batter keeper with Jones,so that shoul enable us to have a propper spinner.

Whenever I see a team line up,I can be sure Giles will be in that line up.Time for a change,new spinner who can actually spin the ball,and get batsmen out.

You wont agree fairer swop than Jones for Read.but now the deed is done.A lot in this thread,and others,Imply,and I say Imply,(and that is open to interpitation)not a lot of faith in the top oorder batsmen,instead of picking the best keeper,or finding the best spinner,it would seen coningenvy plans for top order batters are prefered.

Ernest

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Hampshire Guy

They should just stick in an extra bat then. 1. he ain't going to take no wickets and 2. he can't even keep it tight at the moment. In the West Indies he must have bowled about 15 overs at most?? I think the only time his batting is usefull is when he's taking wickets, otherwise you can just stick in someone else who'll score heavier.

In the Sri Lanka series last Autumn he took 18 wickets. Without Giles we would have lost 3 - 0. Generally he is used as a defensive bowler, so you wouldn't expect him to take bags of wickets. Over his test career he has taken 85 wickets - of the current England bowling attack, only Hoggard has taken more wickets than Giles. True it's taken him a while to get there...

Giles bowled 31 overs in the WI series, at around 4.4 runs an over. Not a great series, but he never really was involved, apart from giving the seamers a little break..