Vaughan Carried Off On Stretcher..

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

But look at it in practical rather than sentimental terms. Tres had had a terrible tour of Australia. He'd failed in the first innings at Edgbaston, and picked up an injury in the second innings (but made a fighting unbeaten 50), and was actually doubtful for the back-to-back test match following just a few days later. Whereas Vaughan was fit and had just scored a big hundred. Who do you give the captaincy to in those circumstances? Your answer could be Mark Butcher, but surely not Marcus Trescothick.

Good point - As much as I think it would very hard on Tres NOT to made Captin for this game (or, who knows, series), I can see reasons it wouldn't be ideal. After all, he is once again coming off a not great tour. I think in a way he needs to be focusing on his game.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

I don't think I have quite forgiven Trescothick for coming off for bad light at Lords last year when he and Butcher had the South African bowling on its knees. I liked the aggressive flair Vaughan was starting to show in the Carribean, and wouldn't like to go back to our traditional English timidity/overcaution.

Dont you think Tresco and butcher were acting on orders from the dressind room?,could have been from vauhan himself?.Sorry vic we have gone back to overcaution,That is why we keep pinking giles as cover in case the top order fails,same reason they got rid of Read,and put Jones in.

Putting it all into perspection there is an element os caution in this squad,then need a propper spinner in stead of,or as well as Giles.I will put up a name Keedy,I am sure others have names as well.

Tress would be better without being burdened with being england captain,it is not set in stone a vicw captain has to take over,he dows not need the added pressure,he inly just showing a little form,he should concentrate on that.

Reluctabtly I have to pur nasas name forward,but if you like the aggresive approach,you may like to put Flintoffs nane forward....

[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

But look at it in practical rather than sentimental terms. Tres had had a terrible tour of Australia. He'd failed in the first innings at Edgbaston, and picked up an injury in the second innings (but made a fighting unbeaten 50), and was actually doubtful for the back-to-back test match following just a few days later. Whereas Vaughan was fit and had just scored a big hundred. Who do you give the captaincy to in those circumstances? Your answer could be Mark Butcher, but surely not Marcus Trescothick.

You're talking about the Test captaincy. Once the ODI captaincy had gone to Vaughan, the die was cast - it was obvious he'd get the Test job too. Tres should have got the ODI captaincy when it came up for grabs -he wasn't vaguely injured then. True, he hadn't had a great WC, but neither had Vaughan. Personally, I think its sentimental to give the captaincy to a guy who's had a great season with the bat, ahead of a guy who has been prepared for the job for two years.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

Good point - As much as I think it would very hard on Tres NOT to made Captin for this game (or, who knows, series), I can see reasons it wouldn't be ideal. After all, he is once again coming off a not great tour. I think in a way he needs to be focusing on his game.

Kirsty

There's no doubt in my mind that Tresco will step up to the plate and take on the Captaincy should Vaughan not be passed fit to play. He is the Vice-Captain, he covers for Vaughan on the field, and I can see no reason why he should not step in for Vaughan now and cover for him. If he doesn't, then it's a mockery of him being Vice-Captain, I don't think the England selectors however inept they are would pull off something as stupid as this. The only other option would be Hussain. They may prefer to opt for this, but it depends. A strong argument could be made that, due to the importance of this first game, they want the side to be Captained by an experienced player - who's done it before and can do it again. Even so, I doubt that will happen, but it adds even more credence to Hussain's selection. Hussain will play in this game and will be invaluable to Trescothick if he Captain's - a second opinion on any decisions if he needs it.

Forget Flintoff, Butcher, Strauss Captaining - thats just rubbish.

If Tresco does Captain, and has poor from with the bat - I hope you're not going to blame it on him being Captain!!!!!!!!

In fact that's another reason Hussain may take over the Captaincy - they don't want it to disturb Tresco's batting, which is a very good argument. It's going to be Tresco (likely) or Hussain.

Scott

[Linseed_on_willow]

Nope! Afraid to disagree! Strauss will be brought in to open and the rest of the order will remain unchanged with Collingwood slotting in at six. Anderson has made a good claim, but there is no need to discard Jones, just on a couple of mediaocre conunty games. he may have been bowling within himself and has never been that prolific in county cricket anyway. Lets see what he can do on thursday (?) before we start considering Anderson.

[Whips_off_the_bails]

Originally Posted by sostenurter

You're talking about the Test captaincy. Once the ODI captaincy had gone to Vaughan, the die was cast - it was obvious he'd get the Test job too. Tres should have got the ODI captaincy when it came up for grabs -he wasn't vaguely injured then. True, he hadn't had a great WC, but neither had Vaughan. Personally, I think its sentimental to give the captaincy to a guy who's had a great season with the bat, ahead of a guy who has been prepared for the job for two years.

Yes, you are right of course, Vaughan had already been given the ODI captaincy, which in many ways was a strange move because he had not proven that he was worth a place in the side as a player at that point. But his captaincy was excellent in the two ODI events last summer. But remember, he wasn't expected to take over the Test captaincy straightaway either. The press and in particular the commentary box pundits put enormous pressure on Hussain until he no longer felt that it was his team, so he resigned in circumstances where there was only one contender at that point.

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Kirsty

There's no doubt in my mind that Tresco will step up to the plate and take on the Captaincy should Vaughan not be passed fit to play. He is the Vice-Captain, he covers for Vaughan on the field, and I can see no reason why he should not step in for Vaughan now and cover for him. If he doesn't, then it's a mockery of him being Vice-Captain, I don't think the England selectors however inept they are would pull off something as stupid as this. The only other option would be Hussain. They may prefer to opt for this, but it depends. A strong argument could be made that, due to the importance of this first game, they want the side to be Captained by an experienced player - who's done it before and can do it again. Even so, I doubt that will happen, but it adds even more credence to Hussain's selection. Hussain will play in this game and will be invaluable to Trescothick if he Captain's - a second opinion on any decisions if he needs it.


If Tresco does Captain, and has poor from with the bat - I hope you're not going to blame it on him being Captain!!!!!!!!

In fact that's another reason Hussain may take over the Captaincy - they don't want it to disturb Tresco's batting, which is a very good argument. It's going to be Tresco (likely) or Hussain.

Scott

Well, you are quite correct - Tres SHOULD really be Captin, as he is the Vice Captin of the side. However, the amount of debate there has been around who will take over the captincy is suggestive of the fact that some people in the England set up are not confident of Tres as captun. I feel as Vice Captin, he really should be selected - otherwise what is the point of him being Vice Captin? It's like me being on leave from work and a Support Worker taking over instead of my Assistant Manager!

Having said that, with his form being in question, part of me thinks, let the man focus on his batting...I agree Naz is the only other logical choice!

[R W S]

Marcus Trescothick will captain England in a Test match for the first time after Michael Vaughan was ruled out of the first Test against New Zealand, which begins at Lord's tomorrow.
Vaughan contemplates his knackered knee

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[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

Yes, you are right of course, Vaughan had already been given the ODI captaincy, which in many ways was a strange move because he had not proven that he was worth a place in the side as a player at that point. But his captaincy was excellent in the two ODI events last summer. But remember, he wasn't expected to take over the Test captaincy straightaway either. The press and in particular the commentary box pundits put enormous pressure on Hussain until he no longer felt that it was his team, so he resigned in circumstances where there was only one contender at that point.

Giving Vaughan the ODI captaincy seemed to me a very strange idea - I think it seemed like very obviously a PR job. At that stage, he wasn't even a definite pick for the ODI team, and his ODI form continues to flatter to decieve. And just as his Test batting from has suffered with the captaincy, I think that his ODI form with the bat would have been much better by now if he hadn't been made captain. You have to remember that Vaughan had very little preparation for the job, unlike Trescothick - when Hussain was captain, he very often consulted with Trescothick in the field, Tres attended some press conferences, and after Hussain, bore the brunt of the Zim fiasco at the WC.

I personally think that the captain of a side should very definitely not be its best batsman, but should be someone who is (more or less) guaranteed a place in the starting line-up, and has been in the side for a couple of years.

Having said all this, I think that Vaughan has led the side magnificently in both forms of the game - if he can regain his batting form, there won't be a problem.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Heres my best guess at the final side for the first Test -

Trescothick*, Strauss, Butcher, Hussain, Thorpe, Flintoff, G Jones+, Giles, Hoggard, S Jones, Harmison

This is the side that I think will play, not the one I think should play.

Scott