Time to ditch GO Jones?

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

Rachael

You have said that Piper is the best man for the job. Do you mean Keith Piper of Warwickshire or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick? If I haven't, how can a 35 year old who doesn't seem to have played a match for his county this season be the best man to be England's wicket keeper?

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

Wicket-keepers are "glorified fielders"? !! Eep! I think you've just disqualified yourself from this debate, Flanflinger.

Don't think I have, they may be the heartbeat of a fieldingside, and Rachel is right that good fielding does make a great site in Cricket, but they are reactive if you have 11 great fielders but no bowlers or batsmen then you would never score any runs, nor get any wickets!!

Rachel's point about making Anderson/Read into a Bedser/Evans type combo is the weidest argument I have ever heard.

Her statement that Jones can't keep, based on a few errors is the most illogical.

I know for her the concept of great work with the gloves is the best thing about cricket but for me, and most normal people, it is great shots by the batsmen, a spinner with guile and turn and a genuine aggresive quickie.

The most entertaining period of test cricket I have ever watched was that spell by Donald to Atherton. Sadly, I can't remeber who the keeper was - and that is my point.

It is like going to watch a play and ignoring the main characters, being more intrested in how the extras are performing. that is why I just don't get it.

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

Flanflinger

I agree with you to an extent. However, I do think that keeping does have more of a part to play in the game than simply being glorified fielding. The deflating effect on NZ when McCullum let through 4 byes when Vettori had stopped Hussain scoring by bowling into the rough outside leg stump was very clear.

The keeper in the Donald-Atherton encounter was old 'Iron Gloves' Boucher who helped England's cause no end by dropping a regulation edge by Hussain off Donald's bowling when Athers had got down the other end.

Keepers will occasionally miss chances - that is a fact of life. However, an international class keeper should not drop straightforward edges and should not inexplicably drop/misfield balls which the batsman has left alone or played and missed. As a keeper myself (albeit at a vastly (and I mean vastly!) inferior standard of cricket) I would be disappointed if I made such a mistake.

(BTW this is a general comment and is not directed specifically at Jones' performance at Lords, although it did have me swearing at the TV)

[Goatman]

There's another level to this, and thats the effect on the bowlers. No matter how mentally strong you are, it is a hard, hard break when you see the ball go off the edge, into the gloves and then pop out and go down. It lifts you like nothing else when you bowl a rank bad ball down the legs, the batsman doesn't quite get hold of it and the keeper takes a blinder diving across. And as the bowler, when you have seen the keeper do the former/latter a few times in the past, it really can impact on how you feel about bowling. A good keepers impact is much, much wider than any other fielder. A good keeper will prey on the mind of a batsman in much the way that Jonty Rhodes did. It is rarely possible to win a game from behind the stumps, but when its close it is possible to swing it your way.

You say that you don't remember the keepers Flanflinger? Well thats your loss. To use an analogy, everyone remembers the role that people like Wilkinson and Robinson played in ENGs world cup victroy/other successes of recent years. No one ever notices Richard "Victor Meldrew" Hill. Unless he's not playing. You bloody well notice then, 'cos the team look crap. Hill is almost universally recognised as the best player in world rugby amongst the players, but if you simply follow the TV coverage his is close to anonymous.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Goatman

. No one ever notices Richard "Victor Meldrew" Hill. Unless he's not playing. You bloody well notice then, 'cos the team look crap. Hill is almost universally recognised as the best player in world rugby amongst the players, but if you simply follow the TV coverage his is close to anonymous.

Actually, Hill is my favourite player, I tend to watch him a lot!!

I do watch keepers, and I agree that dropping catches behind the stumps is not good. However, my main problem is the comment that Jones is not a keeper, when he is, he is just not the best keeper. I feel that if Jones can do a job, and improve then the fact that he is not the best, will not make a difference in the long-term, particularily when he can score runs.

Until we get a great spinner, we do not need the best keeper.

There is a trade-off. Jones needs more time, and you cannot make a decison based on two tests. IMHO.

[Whips_off_the_bails]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Don't think I have, they may be the heartbeat of a fieldingside, and Rachel is right that good fielding does make a great site in Cricket, but they are reactive if you have 11 great fielders but no bowlers or batsmen then you would never score any runs, nor get any wickets!!

The most entertaining period of test cricket I have ever watched was that spell by Donald to Atherton. Sadly, I can't remeber who the keeper was - and that is my point.

Well you should remember, because it is instructive. The keeper was Boucher and in that same passage of play he dropped Nasser Hussain off Donald, much to the latter's rage (although shortly afterward he ran all the way in from his fielding position to let Boucher know there were no hard fieldings). It was not quite as expensive on paper as the umpire failing to spot that Atherton had gloved a catch - Athers went on to make 98 n.o., Hussain made 58. But who knows what would have happened if another batsman had come to the wicket at that hour of the evening with Donald in that mood?

You picked the wrong example there, I'm afraid!

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

Well you should remember, because it is instructive. The keeper was Boucher and in that same passage of play he dropped Nasser Hussain off Donald, much to the latter's rage (although shortly afterward he ran all the way in from his fielding position to let Boucher know there were no hard fieldings). It was not quite as expensive on paper as the umpire failing to spot that Atherton had gloved a catch - Athers went on to make 98 n.o., Hussain made 58. But who knows what would have happened if another batsman had come to the wicket at that hour of the evening with Donald in that mood?

You picked the wrong example there, I'm afraid!

Awww....I always remember the look on Boucher's face after he dropped it..little boy lost!!! I had the urge to give him a hug!!!!

I always think that incident helped Boucher to become a better keeper...

[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

Wicket-keepers are "glorified fielders"? !! Eep! I think you've just disqualified yourself from this debate, Flanflinger. Wicket-keepers are the heartbeat of the fielding side. The reason that England's fielding in the Carribean purred like a well-oiled machine was because Chris Read set the example from behind the stumps. Once again, I have no problem with Jones being given half-a-dozen more matches to prove himself; but he has a lot of redeeming work to do after Lords.

England's fielding "purred like a well-oled machine", did it? I missed that one. The C4 boys said they'd counted the number of catches that went down over the winter (9 Test matches) and 18 catches had gone down. Atherton tried to make out this wasn't a lot - only two a match - but it appears to me that 18 catches going down is hardly "purring like a well-oiled machine". From what I remember in the Carribean, Butcher would drop just as many as usual, but none of the WI batsman were good enough to capitalise!

Of course a keeper is important to the whole fielding side, but very often you can have a poor keeper and a great fielding side. The textbook example of this is SA, who had the best fielder in the world (Rhodes), a truly great outfielding side that was worth about 40 runs a day, and a poor keeper in Boucher. Obviously, I'd rather a better keeper than Boucher, but a side's general fielding and its keeper are not necessarily linked.

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Actually, Hill is my favourite player, I tend to watch him a lot!!

Until we get a great spinner, we do not need the best keeper.

There is a trade-off. Jones needs more time, and you cannot make a decison based on two tests. IMHO.

I'm don't reckon many of us have seen enough of GO Jones to judge either way, but I was of the understanding that he was a keeper from the start, not a batting convert. He certainly needs a run, and we would be very unwise to write off his glove work on the basis of two tests!

I'm not with you on the spinner thing though. A class keeper is a class keeper, whether Murali is bowling, or Harmison is or I am. Not missing any regulation ones and taking the odd blinder is not restircted to edges off spin bowling. If Harmison is working hard, but not making a breakthough and the batsman clips it off his pads only to have the keeper leap three body lengths to his left to take the catch, you'd better believe thats going to give Harmison - and everyone else - as big a lift as it is possible to give. That sort of thing turns matches. Especially if the batsman is Tendulkar, or similar. Stopping Tendulkar with a peice of outstanding fielding is worth far more runs to the team than is offered by playing any batting keeper, even if the specialist keeper in question bats like Tuffers.

Glad to know you watch Hill. I'm a flanker me'self, and I get very bored of people congratulating the pretty boys and forgetting those who do the hard work. Flankers score the fewest points, rarely take crash ball, rarely make breaks and are thus rarely seen with ball in hand. They also make the most tackles, are rarely beaten to the breakdown, kill the most opposition ball, take the most offloads in contact and make the most offloads themselves. I think its an anlogous situation to the keeper:- you only notice them when they make a mistake, but get a good one and the whole team performs so much better.

[Whips_off_the_bails]

I'd like to compare that to the number of catches dropped in previous winters. Fielding in the Carirbean can be very hard, and even an accomplished keeper like Russell had a poor tour (which finished his England career).

Butcher shouldn't be fielding in the slips anyway.