Time to ditch GO Jones?

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

You picked the wrong example there, I'm afraid!

I think it is intresting that I don't remember, I remember the stares and the "Hit me, Hit me" Comments...

[sostenurter]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

I'd like to compare that to the number of catches dropped in previous winters. Fielding in the Carirbean can be very hard, and even an accomplished keeper like Russell had a poor tour (which finished his England career).

Butcher shouldn't be fielding in the slips anyway.

Fair point, fielding in the Carribean is hard, and Jones actually had a really good Test with the gloves in Antigua. He kept to spin bowling for large periods of the game there, sometimes with a spinner at each end. That's probably the longest innings he's ever kept in, and yet his concentration hardly seemed to waver. So far, he's had one good match with the gloves and one bad match. We'll have to see which is the truer representation of his abilities.

I will also say that if we can get players who can bowl and bat to a high standard, then we really should be able to get a player who can bat and keep to a high standard. Alec Stewart started out as a novice keeper and became (imo) very good. There's no reason Jones can't do that. I still believe it is easier to train a good wicketkeeper than to train a good batsman. If you have a good batsman and an average keeper vs. a good keeper and an average batsman, I would always pick the first, because the chances of his glovework improving are greater than the chances of the other guy's batting improving.
England are in a fortunate situation at the moment. After this series, we play the WI, which makes it two series against sides who are of equal or lesser ability. After that, we take on SA and Aus, two sides who are much better than us. We need to get the bedding in and the experimentation finished before we take on these sides. Now is the ideal time to do it.

Flanflinger's comment that keepers are glorified fielders is an exaggeration, but it is true that of all cricket's skills, the easiest to learn is keeping. That's not playing down the importance of keeping and how vital it can be - it's just making the point that bowling and batting are more demanding and require more skill.

[Rachael]

Not sure I agree here: nothing in cricket requires the anticipation, timing and eye for the ball that great glovework requires. Those who are great barely require gloves (and Jack Russell's were so notoriously thin that you could question why he bothered). To adjust for late movement, especially when unsighted down the leg-side, and not have the ball bounce slightly off the hand on impact is something I fear very, very few cricketers could do even with incredible practice.

On the other hand... the great 'keepers have a long history of being able to use that excellent eye for the ball to bat effectively. Many of them have been unorthodox.. and a lot of them triumph more in improvisation than through classic shots around the wicket... and a lot of them look ungainly - but any batting coach worth his salt would jump at the chance to help a player in that mould develop as a more effective batsman.

I'd concede that Stewart, by the end, more than held his own on the county circuit: not in the league of Russell... and principly defensive... but competent. I don't doubt that in time (whether that be 2-3 years or 4-5 years) Jones will reach somewhere near that mark. If he were to concentrate on that discipline, Prior might do likewise: can't say for certain.. but it's possible.

Sadly, Fletcher's seriously-unethical pre-emptive strike against Marsh means we're stuck with Jones though: I'd have preferred to see us wait until mid season before considering moving on from Read so that we could have seen at first hand just how his glove-work had fared over in the winter... and then, with his unreadiness apparent, if Read really had to go, move on to whoever from Wallace, Foster and Prior was looking most promising.

Sadly.. that option is no longer open to us.. and I guess that even if Wallace (the most obvious candidate) does absolutely everything right.... there's not a chance in hell of him getting a prompt call up (unless Fletcher resigns: wishful thinking).

So, Jones it is.. though after this performance.. surely not in the ODI.

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

Rachael

Do you really want Fletcher to resign? Surely he has been largely responsible for the improvement of the team during his tenure as coach?

I agree entirely that Jones should not have been brought into the team for the last test against WI. It would have been interesting to see how Read batted on what was a featherbed pitch - if he had failed then Fletcher et al would have been well within their rights to replace him with whoever they deemed to be next in line for the current series (although whether that would have lead to us losing the last match of the WI series is another question entirely - on balance I would say it wouldn't have changed the result).

On the Wallace issue, both Fletcher and Marsh will be aware of his talent (Fletcher having given the young man his first class debut whilst he was coach of Glamorgan I think). However, he is still very young and it is probably too early for him to step up to international level at the moment. If he continues to progress he will be ready at the end of next season at the very latest (and by then Glamorgan should have had the time to find a replacement 'keeper!)

[Rich Greenfield]

Originally Posted by Glamorgan Wanderer

Rachael

On the Wallace issue, both Fletcher and Marsh will be aware of his talent (Fletcher having given the young man his first class debut whilst he was coach of Glamorgan I think). However, he is still very young and it is probably too early for him to step up to international level at the moment. If he continues to progress he will be ready at the end of next season at the very latest (and by then Glamorgan should have had the time to find a replacement 'keeper!)

Well, Shaw is the second keeper.....
Yeah actually your right we need to get a back up before Wallace disappears never to be seen again at Sophia Gardens

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Glamorgan Wanderer

I agree entirely that Jones should not have been brought into the team for the last test against WI. It would have been interesting to see how Read batted on what was a featherbed pitch - if he had failed then Fletcher et al would have been well within their rights to replace him with whoever they deemed to be next in line for the current series (although whether that would have lead to us losing the last match of the WI series is another question entirely - on balance I would say it wouldn't have changed the result).

What would it have proved if he made a 30 or 40 on a flat track? He'd have come into the side and been found wanting on other pitches, which would just waste time in proving what we already know. Why are people so inclined to give him even more goes, when he's already had 15 or so? Yet Jones, has two goes and it's get him out of the team. Madness.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Rachael

I'd concede that Stewart, by the end, more than held his own on the county circuit: not in the league of Russell... and principly defensive... but competent. I don't doubt that in time (whether that be 2-3 years or 4-5 years) Jones will reach somewhere near that mark. If he were to concentrate on that discipline, Prior might do likewise: can't say for certain.. but it's possible.

The intresting thing on your anlysis of Stewart is your assumption that he was a batsman who was turned into a keeper. Actually he was picked for Surrey as a keeper, but dramatically improved his batting. In schools Cricket (he went to a school called Tiffins in Kingston, Surrey) he only actually scored one hundred. I have an old cricket album from the early 80's where Stewart's batting is hardly mentioned, because he was primarily a keeper.

I am also lead to believe that Jones is not a converted batsman but a keeper first.

The hand eye co-ordination, that you think is so important in keeping, is actually the same natural ability that any batsmen may already have.

Russell was a great keeper, but had we had Russell instead of Stewart, or Russell with Stewart in the team and one less bowler, do you think that England would have won as many matches - no. Ultimatly Cricket is about winning, no matter how good your keeper may look, if your team doesn't win what is the point?

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Hampshire Guy

What would it have proved if he made a 30 or 40 on a flat track? He'd have come into the side and been found wanting on other pitches, which would just waste time in proving what we already know. Why are people so inclined to give him even more goes, when he's already had 15 or so? Yet Jones, has two goes and it's get him out of the team. Madness.

HG, can you point out where in my post I state that Jones should be dropped?

My point was rather that it would have been interesting to see how Read batted on that pitch (it would certainly have made for an interesting selection meeting prior to the first NZ test!). Who knows, if Read had made a significant score in that match his confidence in his batting may have increased and this in turn may have lead to him being more productive at the highest level (BTW I have never fallen into either the pro-Jones or the pro-Read camp during the discussions of their relative merits).

However, matters have now moved on and Jones is now the man in possession and he should be given the same opportunity as Read to make the place his own (at least until the end of the WI series this summer IMO). On the (limited) evidence we have so far he will measure up as a batsman but his wicketkeeping needs to improve. We shall wait and see.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Glamorgan Wanderer

HG, can you point out where in my post I state that Jones should be dropped?

Not you, but there are alot of people who do want Jones dropped.

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Rich Greenfield

Well, Shaw is the second keeper.....
Yeah actually your right we need to get a back up before Wallace disappears never to be seen again at Sophia Gardens

Rich

That is what I mean! Shaw is not up to the required standard (especially if we need the keeper to consistently score runs batting in the top 6). Do you know of any other prospects on the current staff or elsewhere that might come into consideration?