Butcher Or Strauss?

[high_on_linseed]

I think part of the problem is that we are comparing Giles, a slow left armer with off-break bowlers. Yes, they are both spinners, but they bowl a completley different line and to completely different fields. If England want to bowl an off-break bowler, they should find one better than Batty - maybe Keedy - but if they want to play Giles that is a seperate issue IMO. Personally, I don't think we'll need either much this summer, especially if Vaughan can fill in a bit.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Throw in peitersen into the equasion and its even more complicated. I've read vaughan doesnt like bowling much because of his back. I dont think people are comparing SLA to off spinners just good bowlers and **** poor bowlers !

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by high_on_linseed

Sorry, I misunderstood Ernests reply. I think we all agree, Giles should go. All the excitements gone to my head!

Yes he should go,may be replaced,I cant think of a decent off spinner,so I will put Keedy forward,Slow left arm,there may be others,Like Atherton who used to bowl Leg Spin,I dont think Vaughan likes bowling.

Ernest

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

It was his best bowling disply in a while. Its pretty sad when you look at his match figures on a dry pitch that they are his best figures for a while. Those whacking great footmarks were tailor made for him and he still didnt get alot of turn. He cant be the best spinner we've got.

Trouble is Richie,selectors think he is the best,I dont think they Know keedy exists,and there must be others,mustent there?

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

I thought Vettori looked dangerous in spells, but he's also going through a bad trot. Problem is we really change a winning team.

RBLC

Thats exactly the time when you should change it - change it from a position of strength being proactive, not knee-jerk and making changes simply because a side is losing. The Aussies change and tweak their side on a Match by Match basis, they play the best 11 they can to win the next Match - not simply keep the same side for continuity.

Scott

[R W S]

Difficult to deduce what the plans are - and when we do see them it should reveal the overall stategy. But in the meantime we can have some fun second guessing!

Some points to take into consideration:

I heard on TMS that chair DG has asked Middx not to play Strauss in the county match this week.
I'd read into this that we will play Strauss at Leeds in some capacity.

The NZs had a problem with our left/right combinations - especially Vettori.
we must balance the order with this in mind

Headingley is a seamers pitch and low scoring
Yorks are pony but in CC2 this season Hants/Essex have put up 400 or high 300s - so no 5 seamers

Giles is back to his best form (doesnt say much!) and ExEngland star Udal got 3 for 8 in a 1st innings in Leeds
The England management are married to the idea of having a batting spinner - so Giles will play

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by R W S

Difficult to deduce what the plans are

I'd read into this that we will play Strauss at Leeds in some capacity.

The NZs had a problem with our left/right combinations - especially Vettori.

Headingley is a seamers pitch and low scoring
Yorks are pony but in CC2 this season Hants/Essex have put up 400 or high 300s - so no 5 seamers

Hi R W S
We will have to play Strauss now,but who do we leave out?raw stats on the time strauss has been in the team would sugest Butcher,I think they will drop Giles and be a bowler light.

I think this New Zealand team is overrated,you could sorta tell from lunch on,there was no way England would lose,the Kiwi's had no zip about them,our seamers bowl well at left handers,vettori I would not swap for Giles,and that is saying something.

I think this England team has some class about it,If we where to play Australia tomorrow,I think we would win,they would underestimate us.

You are right it is difficult to deduce what plans there are,I think Nasa gave the selectors a problem today.

Ernest

[Electric Vic]

Originally Posted by high_on_linseed

Butcher should NOT be dropped on the basis of one match. If any of the batsmen should go it should be Tres. Replacing him with Strauss would be like for like (leftie opener for leftie opener). but I'd much rather see him drop down, and give Gilo a "rest".

OK then, what about dropping Butcher on the basis of the last 12 matches? The last time Butch got a ton was 13 tests ago, against SA last summer. He has passed 50 on 8 other occasions in his last 25 innings. Of course the stats don't tell you everything - this run includes a good series against Murali in Sri Lanka and a couple of important innings in the West Indies.

But shouldn't he be doing better? I have the feeling Butch is happy with a quick 50 or 60 and doesn't go on to make big scores often enough. And after Hussain's brilliant fielding and batting at Lords, is the butterfingered Butcher really a better choice for the next few matches?

I certainly wouldn't pick Butch ahead of Tresco, and Strauss MUST stay in the team, as an opener. I think it's a choice between Butcher (on a seaming wicket) and Giles (on one which might take spin).

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Electric Vic

OK then, what about dropping Butcher on the basis of the last 12 matches? The last time Butch got a ton was 13 tests ago, against SA last summer. He has passed 50 on 8 other occasions in his last 25 innings. Of course the stats don't tell you everything - this run includes a good series against Murali in Sri Lanka and a couple of important innings in the West Indies.

But shouldn't he be doing better? I have the feeling Butch is happy with a quick 50 or 60 and doesn't go on to make big scores often enough. And after Hussain's brilliant fielding and batting at Lords, is the butterfingered Butcher really a better choice for the next few matches?

I certainly wouldn't pick Butch ahead of Tresco, and Strauss MUST stay in the team, as an opener. I think it's a choice between Butcher (on a seaming wicket) and Giles (on one which might take spin).

Vic,

Who was the overall series top scorer in the West Indies - Mark Butcher - 296 runs at 59 (also the second highest Average) and the most consitent batsman,

The intresting thing was Hussain's comments after the game about not wanting to hold young players up. I think he may step down when 6 batsmen are needed.

Headingly will need seven batsmen, and so might Trent Bridge...

My Team..

Vaughan, Trescothick, Butcher, Strauss, Hussain, Thorpe, Flintoff, G Jones, S Jones, Hoggard, Harmison.

[Tom Partis]

What is Hussain were to retire? that would solve the Strauss problem, and i have to say that i would be one of the first to applaud him if he were to stand down now, it would be a very magnanimous gesture. if that were the case, would you also bring in anderson for giles on the headingly wicket, just to give the attack that bit more potence? we could see a side looking like:

vaughan, strauss (for the left hand/right hand partnership at the top) butcher, thorpe (bats best at 4) trescothick, flintoff, jones, hoggard, jones, anderson, harmison

that's a slightly lengthy tail, but with a strong batting lineup down to 7, this shouldn't be so much of an issue. any comments?