Now come on lads.....

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Goatman

Nice eloquent post.

I notice how you completely avoided the problem though! So, if Nas continues and Vaughan is fit - who do you play and who do you leave out?

Scott

I know I ducked the real issue Scott - but it was for a reason. I can see several options for the next few tests, but I deliberately kept my opinions out - I diddn't want people just saying "You can't drop X or Y" and missing the point of what I wanted to say. I reckon if you get the method right, the result looks after itself and its the method that I wanted to adress here.

For the record, I would drop Mr. Piles for Headingley, not because we don't need a spinner here but purely because all the batsmen in the debate are more likely to infulence the match than the wheeliebin in my eyes. After that it gets tougher, as we can't keep on ducking the issue. I think the squad mentality may be important here. I remember a very successful Leicester (rugby) team in the 90's, who had 3 international standard wingers and two international standard full-backs. They rotated these players around and it worked fairly well. They won the European cup in that period if memory serves. If a club can do that, why shouldn't a national team? The players are hadrly like to cancel thier contract and work out to join another club!

[Goatman]

Incidentally Scott, Have you seen my views on Tres in the "blooding new players" thread? What do you think?

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

The chief one is that we don't want all the senior batsmen retiring together leaving the side robbed of experience. Also we want the newbies bedded in before the next Ashes series.

Clive

I just don't accept this as an argument!

Senior batsmen retiring together? Huh? Do you know how much older Butcher is over Andrew Strauss? Strauss is 27 and Butcher is 31. Hussain is 36. Butcher is 4 years older than Strauss, and Hussain 5 years older than Butcher!

For interest the top and middle order are Vaughan 30, Trescothick 29, Butcher 31, Hussain 36, Thorpe 35.

By that reckoning Butcher has at least 5 more years to go, and Thorpe one or two, although I fully expect Thorpe to keep on going, after all, they didn't hesitate to bring him back into the side even though he's only 1 year younger than Nas!

Personally I think age is irrelevant - if you're still playing well, why retire?

Scott

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Goatman

I know I ducked the real issue Scott - but it was for a reason.

Goaty

I know you ducked the real issue, which is why I called you on it! LOL It's all very well expounding the virtues of Team Selection, but this is going to be an incredibly difficult decision the selectors have to make.

Dropping Ashley is also the easy way out, which also avoids the real issue! However, I'm possibly with you on this one - I feel this may be the best compromise the selectors come up with.

Originally Posted by Goatman

They rotated these players around and it worked fairly well. They won the European cup in that period if memory serves. If a club can do that, why shouldn't a national team?

Chuckle!

And you're advocating exactly what many people on here have advocated - rotating the players according to the Match in hand! That may mean Butch being left out, or it may mean Giles being left out - but it's still rotating the players.

Now get off that damned soapbox, so endeth todays lesson!

Scott

[Goatman]

I agree with you here Scott - with the fact that the younger players need to have opportunity to learn the test game and gain experience taken into account. I am very keen for Nas NOT to retire here - I don' t think he is the kind, but it would be very good for the team if he would stick around for another year or so to put pressure on the others. He is playing well and ENG still need him. I'd forgotten Butcher was 31 - I though he was older. He's been around a bit hasn't he!

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Goatman

Incidentally Scott, Have you seen my views on Tres in the "blooding new players" thread? What do you think?

Goaty

Not even got to that yet - I'm still working my way through the plethora of posts on here today and I have to go out soon!

Scott

[Goatman]

I may have misunderstood people, but I got the impression of a a "Strauss in in, so who is out" sort of situation. I'm looking for a situation where everyone is in, or very nearly. Basically, whoever loses out in Leeds should be back in the team come the third test in my mind. Its the only way to maintain the pressure on places.

[Scott-Wozniak]

Originally Posted by Goatman

I agree with you here Scott - with the fact that the younger players need to have opportunity to learn the test game and gain experience taken into account. I am very keen for Nas NOT to retire here - I don' t think he is the kind, but it would be very good for the team if he would stick around for another year or so to put pressure on the others. He is playing well and ENG still need him. I'd forgotten Butcher was 31 - I though he was older. He's been around a bit hasn't he!

Goatman

I am too. I'm the last person who want's to see Nas retire, and still feel he has a lot to give to this England side, not just in terms of his batting, but in his experience as a player and as a Captain. I was one of the people who argued vociferously that Nas should tour the Caribbean when so many dimwits on the BBC board wanted him out.

However, if Nas wants to retire soon, which it seems he does, now is as good a time as any to do so - I think this is what's preying on his mind. Should I go out now - on the crest of a wonderful win at Lords having bashed a Century and the winning runs? Or should I continue, get my 100 Caps but perhaps go out on a low note having scored a duck in the first Test against the WIndies? It's not an easy one for him to call. He also clearly does not want to stand in the way of any young Cricketers pushing for places in the England side - that's the gentleman he is.

I'm happy to admit - Hussain is one of my biggest Cricketing Hero's and I want to see him go out on a high note, so slightly favour him retiring now, not because it makes the selectors job easy, not because it brings Strauss into the side, but because I want to see my hero go out on a high note and end his career in style at the home of Cricket - which everyone will remember him for.

It was interesting watching the Sky analysis last night - they were talking on the subject of Nas's retirement and Botham looked decidedly 'shifty' he did not look comfortable. He knows he f*cked up with that stupid article he wrote and Nas just showed him up with his performance, and all Botham could say over and over again - Nas should continue he's playing well, he's got at least two years to go etc, was quite funny!

Scott

[R W S]

Originally Posted by Goatman

I may have misunderstood people, but I got the impression of a a "Strauss in in, so who is out" sort of situation. I'm looking for a situation where everyone is in, or very nearly. Basically, whoever loses out in Leeds should be back in the team come the third test in my mind. Its the only way to maintain the pressure on places.

If we cant lose the series then we should 'rotate' in the third test, agree.

[sostenurter]

Out of interest, what happens if we leave out Giles for Headingley, play six bats (Tres, Vaughan, Butch, Nas, Thorpe, Strauss) and Butcher hits a century? Suppose then that there is a lot of sunshine in Nottingham and a spinner is deemed necessary for Trent Bridge? What happens then? Ah, the dilemma! This is great! In my entire lifetime of supporting the England cricket team, there's never been this much competition for places!