Flintoff's improvement

[flanflinger]

...........Mat ..Runs ..HS ..BatAv ..100 ..50 ..W ..BB ..BowlAv ..5w ..Ct

Total ....34 ...1472 ..142 ..28.30 ...3 ....7 ..66 ..5/58 ..41.95 ..1 ...21

From SA 13 ....829 ..142 ..43.63 ...2 ...5 ...33 ..5/58 ...36.75 ..1 ...7

From the start of the South Africa Series you can really start to see how much he has improved

1. A very good average of over 43
2. Half his wickets have come in the last 13 tests
3. Two of his three hundreds have come in this period, five of his seven 50's are there as well
4. Over half his total runs have been scored in this period
5. Best bowling and batting figures during this time

If he keeps this up - he will easily be the best all-rounder in the world by a mile

[R W S]

Interesting stats! I think it slightly flatters his batting and under rates his bowling. Good to see both key figures moving sharply in the right direction. The other allrounders who can claim to being the best in the world are either in decline or static.

Soon we'll have the top rated bolwer & allrounder - now we need a bat to step forward..... Hello Mr Strauss?

DaveGillespie has some more stats on Freddie's corner turning exploits - here

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by R W S

Interesting stats! I think it slightly flatters his batting and under rates his bowling.

You are sort-of right there RWS: the figures for the batting are actually a fair reflection of his ability to score runs... and the figures for the bowling are a fair reflection on his ability to take wickets... it's just that his contribution with the bat is nothing BUT runs.. and his contribution with the ball is a lot more than just wickets.

What's missing from those stats are the less easily quantified elements of batting that make a truly TEst class batsman's contribution read "runs +", like Richardson-style occupation of the crease, Hussain-style delivering the goods when the chips are down or Thorpe-style adaptation to the conditions and match situation, plus incessant, risk free rotation of the strike and protection of the tail.

As the old saying goes: it's not how many you make, it's how and when you make them.

Conversely.. Flintoff, over the past 12 months, has been a willing workhorse of a bowler that, without really showing much penetration (soemthing reflected in the "reward") has clearly "done a job". Like Giles, he's been invaluable to the team even when NOT troubling batsmen. The two are quite comparable really: limited in their repertoire, strongest (compared with their peers) on the negative stuff.... and in the absense of anyone more versatile... invaluable.

In short.... I'm not sure THAT much has changed with Flintoff this past 12 months. He's matured, sure... but as a bat he started the year being widely viewed as a no 7... and despite one marginally more mature innings showing better discipline in shot selection... he's still got a way to go to convince that he's a genuine no 6 (further, I would suggest, than one GO Jones.. or even Collingwood). Equally.. I doubt that 12 months ago anyone would have put him ahead of Harmison, Hoggard, Jones, Anderson, Caddick or Johnson with the ball.. and whilst he's shown he's not so far behind those guys as he was... behind he remains.

The difference, I guess, is that he no longer unbalances the side: having moved from Read to Jones... and having discovered previously unsuspected batting prowess in Giles, Hoggard and S Jones... he sits OK alongside just 5 specialist bats.. and having got a trio of very different and effective strike bowlers... it has to be said that he now compliments the attack far better than he did this time last year.

I'm still not sure I'd play him at Headingly... prefering Caddick as a 4th seamer (Strauss, Vaughan, Butcher, Hussain, Thorpe, Tresco, Jones, Caddick, Hoggard, Jones, Harmison)... but I'm not as averse to seeing him in as a bowler as I was even a few months back. That's progress.

[flanflinger]

Rachel,

Trust you to be the only person to find fault in those figures.

You want a gritty innings - St Johns First Innings. Where he also batted with the tail.

He was widely acknowledged as the best bowler at Lords, but with his usual lack of luck. The best spell being the creation of the pressure that resulted in Fleming's first innings wicket. Troy Colley said in an interview that he has been workin with him on his mental approach from stock bowler to wicket taker - the main conversation occured just before the Barbados test - look at the result.

He is best slip fielder we have by a big margin.

Only you in your bizare cricket-world view could suggest dropping him for old-man Caddick!!

I am so glad though that you have moved slightly in your opinion on him though. I really hope he continues to prove you wrong, as in my opinon he is becoming the key man in the England team.

[R W S]

Originally Posted by Rachael

That's progress.

Progress indeed. On current form I cant think of a player within the England setup who hasnt come on in some regard in the last 12 months.Annual appraisals are of greater value than snap decisions over two tests. Your reply sat squarely with my unrationalised reply. Nicely put.

[Victor Frankenstein]

interesting stats, just think how much better they'd read if butcher hadn't been in the slips

I've always been very dissapointed in flintoff and felt he was wasting the talent he clearly had, but i guess the pressure of always being compared to botham and more importantly expected to play like him too was just too much. He seems to have finally started to get to grips with it and i think it all goes back to that india tour when he changed his action to front on and reduced the amount of pain he was in from bowling. I've been very impressed with his attitude in recent times and hope he continues on this upward curve, but i do wish sometimes he would write on his hand "just because you've scored one boundary over the top doesn't mean you have to repeat it next ball"

[Whips_off_the_bails]

Originally Posted by Rachael

I'm still not sure I'd play him at Headingly... prefering Caddick as a 4th seamer (Strauss, Vaughan, Butcher, Hussain, Thorpe, Tresco, Jones, Caddick, Hoggard, Jones, Harmison)... but I'm not as averse to seeing him in as a bowler as I was even a few months back. That's progress.

I'm feeling cheeky, so I'll allow myself the cheap shot: progress on your part, RDT.

I doubt if anyone else would seriously contemplate leaving him out at Headingley, despite his pairs on that ground in 1998 and 2002. Last year he scored useful fifties in both innings in difficult conditions and bowled economically.

How you must recoil in horror when he hits the ball in the air!

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Freddie bowls much better than rachael gives him credit for. There been many occasions he's beaten the bat and too many when he's got the edge but some clown has dropped him, and he's still a great slip fielder himself. I'd be happier if he got more runs, but he's making big steps in that direction.

And comparing him with Giles ? Do me a favour..........

[Mike_Hock]

Who cares how long it takes Freddie to score runs as long as he gets them? Why turn him into something he is not? I dont understand. He is not in the team to just see off the new ball etc. He bats a lot with the tail and needs to get quick runs.

[freddie flintoff 142]

Originally Posted by Whips_off_the_bails

I'm feeling cheeky, so I'll allow myself the cheap shot: progress on your part, RDT.

I doubt if anyone else would seriously contemplate leaving him out at Headingley, despite his pairs on that ground in 1998 and 2002. Last year he scored useful fifties in both innings in difficult conditions and bowled economically.

How you must recoil in horror when he hits the ball in the air!

WOTB - agree mate.

RDT - Ok me name gives away that am a big freddie fan BUT-

I have also been a massive critic of his as well because of his talent and how he went from being 20-23 without really doing anything with it. But to contenplate leaving the guy out now is a complete and utter mystery. I agree with some posts of your RDT but two problems here - you cant drop fred, look at the stats, i know your big on stats and DG's break down and flanfinger's breakdown as well show his worth.
Second of all CADDICK???????? he should do a Hussain, retire now, his last test he won the game for England, he'll never do it agian because firstly, after the injury he had and his age it will have affected him also, how many bowlers are ahead of him in the pecking order, i'd go as far as to say even Mahmood, who has bowled tripe this year is ahead of him.


Think the red mist mite have decended there a bit