Bell-Butcher-key-Thorpe>

[Ernest]

Seems a long time since we came back from the winter tour of the West Wndies victorious, and undefeted, and then came along New Zealand, and we thrashed them, we are at the moment giving the west Indies another good hiding ,but a serious point as come about.

Butcher was injured, he has done nothing wrong,now Strauss is in Hussain retired, but now Thorpe is injured, while making a 100 for England.

So enter ian Bell, to ream up with key and Strauss.

My point is, will Butcher and or Thorpe ever get back into the England team, on merit, not through injury to another player.

Key along with Flintoff, won us the match at Old trafford.

Ian Bell has come in today, and played a blinder, what now for Butcher and Thorpe????are they finished?

[nealN]

Strauss
Trescothick
Key/Bell
Vaughan
Thorpe
Flintoff
G Jones
Giles
Hoggard
Anderson
Harmison

S Jones
Read
Key/Bell
Collingwood
Batty


Personally that's the team and squad I'd take to South Africa and expect our test team to be based around for the next year or so. Thorpe should be picked because he is still a vital player for us in my opinion. Whichever one of Key or Bell loses his place will have plenty of oppertunities soon with Thorpe likely to come to the end of his career in the next two years... Unfortunatly it looks like the end of the line for Butcher. I feel he's unlikely to make the team again becuase he's not as vital as Thorpe is nor is he young in the way the Bell/Key/Collingwood troika are.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by ernest

Ian Bell has come in today, and played a blinder, what now for Butcher and Thorpe????are they finished?

Having seen Butcher recently, trying desperatly to get fit, jogging round the Oval, I think he is the more worried.

I think Thorpie will find himself getting back in, the boy is just class and has proven that time and time again. The innings Key played in Manchester was crucial, without that I think he would be the most in trouble.

For me the squad for South Africa will depend on whether they are planning on taking two spinners and two keepers. It would be madness to tour without some back-up for these specialist areas, but would mean that a traditional 14 man party would not have room for all four Batsmen.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Having seen Butcher recently, trying desperatly to get fit, jogging round the Oval, I think he is the more worried.

I think Thorpie will find himself getting back in, the boy is just class and has proven that time and time again. The innings Key played in Manchester was crucial, without that I think he would be the most in trouble.

To be honest this is how I see it also, I am not so sure they will pick two keepers to tour S Africa, they may rely on Tresco, Sterart reviseted.
I rate Butcher, but he is showing no signs of being fit, unles he was told to pull a sicky, to have a look at Bell and key.

[flanflinger]

If I could have 16 man squad, then this would be it:-

Vaughan
Trescothick
Strauss
Butcher
Thorpe
Flintoff
G. Jones
Giles
Hoggard
Harmison
Anderson
S. Jones
Key
Bell
Batty
Read

But if they are limited to 15 men, it would depend on whether you go for a second spinner or a reserve keeper. Either that or you would have to dump one of Butcher, Key or Bell? What a nice problem for the selectors to have?

[Rachael]

The principle consideration for this winter, to my mind, is the increasing proximity of the Ashes games next summer: sure, we want a strong side out to face the SA lot.. and we'd like to win that series.. but sorting out and bedding in the players for the following summer strikes me as more important.

IF you take Strauss, Vaughan and Thorpe as guaranteed batting places... that leaves 2 1st team slots for Tresco, Butcher, Key, Bell and Pietersen (surely we can ignore Collingwood as a Test candidate now: good long term cover but no more) + 2 places in the touring squad.

My guess is that Tresco will get the nod for the winter in a final chance to shine... and that Butcher is at least in with a shout of regaining his spot as well on similar terms: you can cart Key, Bell and Pietersen around as extras and expect them to be appreciative and to learn stuff.. but carting Tresco and Butcher round as reserves makes rather less sense - and the odds are that you'd permanently lose the services of at least one, if not both.

Pietersen to miss out.. with Butcher's fate depending on whether we take 2 spinners.

The only thing that would see Flintoff ommitted is surgery.. and I can't see that now: they seem to be managing the problems pretty well.. and will be absolutely desperate to let the big guy build his confidence whilst his form is so hot: strikes me as a critical tour that should see the emergence of the finished article - and just in time as well!

Jones is obviously going.. but which from Read, Foster, Wallace, Prior and the rest? Read's form with the bat has been far more impressive of late.. so I'd not rule him out. Foster seems the most "ready" of the rest. My thought would be: "Read is the only one who stands the slightest chance of being expereinced enough to be drafted in for the Ashes.. so we look at the others, if neccessary, after that".

I suspect that leaves Giles, Harmison, Hoggard, Anderson and Jones as certainties for the rest of the touring party.. and Batty missing out. Bit light on the bowling there.. but Mahmood wil almost certainly be placed on standby.

[Ernest]

I think your team is near the mark nielN, I see you have ommited Butcher, you also dont think he will be fit enough?liek I just said to flanfinger, i dont think they will take 2 specialist keepers, they may rely on Tresco, in an emergency, and send for one.

Even if they do pick 2 keepers, I can't see them picking Read, bad feeling, and all that, no IMO it would be Foster.

[nealN]

Originally Posted by ernest

I think your team is near the mark nielN, I see you have ommited Butcher, you also dont think he will be fit enough?liek I just said to flanfinger, i dont think they will take 2 specialist keepers, they may rely on Tresco, in an emergency, and send for one.

Even if they do pick 2 keepers, I can't see them picking Read, bad feeling, and all that, no IMO it would be Foster.

Partly to do with fitness and partly becuase I feel the selectors will want to bring Collingwood as he's someone who'll be a good standby for a few years unlike the aging Butcher... Shame becauce Butcher is still a good batsman...

I agree there is the possibility of them doing a Trecothick as reserve WK job but think they'll take a second WK. That's just because the Winter before an Ashes series is always subject to more media attention and if Jones got injured and we had to play Tresco it would give those in the media who like to have a knock some easy ammo about "England's unprofessionalism" and "lack of preperation" etc...

Interesting point Re Foster and I think you're right there is a good chance they'll favour Foster because of the bad blood...

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by ernest

Butcher, you also dont think he will be fit enough?.

Butcher was very close to being fit only a few weeks back, I get the feeling he may shrug off this niggle before the flight. As Rachael pointed out, beating the Saffers is important but for England the big test comes next Summer.

Then the question is - if all are fit, who would you think would be the best players to help win the Ashes, in that case I would go for a fit again Butcher and Thorpe over Key and Bell, they are still young so maybe there big chance may come when we tour soon after.

[Ernest]

I think most of us would agree at least in part to what you have said, I can't see a place for Pieterson though, not even as a bowler.

Originally Posted by Rachael

IF you take Strauss, Vaughan and Thorpe as guaranteed batting places... that leaves 2 1st team slots for Tresco, Butcher, Key, Bell and Pietersen (surely we can ignore Collingwood as a Test candidate now: good long term cover but no more) + 2 places in the touring squad.

Well I hope you are right, but we are a bit top heavy in the batting, assuming Butcher and Thorpe are fit, I think Thorpe is a must, but key and Bell,are now in the equasion.
I think the man in danger is Butcher, just because he has been out the longest, and Bell and Key have just had runs.

I dont think for one moment Flintoff will miss out with surgery, his condition is not that bad, abd that is from the horses mouth.

Bowling is a bit more probmatical, Flintoff and Harmason + Giles will be the backbone,along with Hoggy, but do they produce swingers in South Africa, not so sure.

Back up bowlers, well we have an unfit IMHO Simon jones, an underconfident and underused Anderson, and a raw Mahmood.I think they have to take Batty, or another spinner.

GO Jones is sure to go, like Tresco, he has friends, and I can't see the selectors picking Read as cover, no way, they will manage with Jones, with Tresco as cover, or take Foster.

Bottom line is, the squad is not large enough to cover the fragile bowling we have, should an injury occure, like it did in Australia ( Flintoff and jones ).