English Cricket going down hill?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Mike

612 RWT Key
613 JM Anderson
619 GJ Batty ***
622 PD Collingwood
623 GO Jones

These guys haven't established themselves in the team, yet, and Bell and Pietersen are knocking on the door.

Well I would think Anderson is established already, I never knew why he has not been played of late..
I think Key is there, he is the man in possetion.
GO Jones, I think he will stay if only for political reasons, Read is the better keeper, but that don't seem to count.
P Collingwood, I am just playing a hunch here, I think he looks the part.

Enter Batty, is I think technically still in the England set up, but I wonder if Giles where to be injured, would he be automatic choice, or would Keedy get his chance.

Bell and Pieterson are knocking at the door, but that would be going back to selection and suck it and see!, I can see who Bell may replace in such a situation, but who would Pieterson replace?.

Ern

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Mike

Butcher, Thorpe and Hoggard will need to be replaced before the decade is out - that's three more. So do we need to give 20 new caps?

Uh... Thorpe will presumably be gone by 2010, yes.. and probably Butcher.. but Hoggard's one of the younger members of the squad: he should be near his peak at the end of the decade.

1 August 1969, Thorpe
23 August 1972, Butcher
19 March 1973, Giles
29 October 1974, Vaughan
25 December 1975, Trescothick	
14 July 1976, Geraint Jones
31 December 1976, Hoggard
2 March 1977, Strauss
6 December 1977, Flintoff
23 October 1978, Harmison
25 December 1978, Simon Jones
30 July 1982, Anderson

Looking through that list... the guys I'd see as most vulnerable to early marginalisation through wear and tear and injury would be Flintoff (that body is already creaking) and Simon Jones (surely an unsustainable bowling action). I'd hope that there would be pressure from the academy intake on the aging Giles before the decade is out.. and one hopes that Tresco will be dislodged by academy intake LONG before that... and there's a fair chance that Anderson will, by then, be a long faded county plodder who never quite made it.

Sure, the turnover has been high.. but the academy is only JUST starting to deliver: I suspect the turnover for the next 5 years will be quite significant as well.

[Mike]

In this article, Marsh seems to support my point that it is beneficial for the England team to have players who can maintain their place in the side for ten years.

Marsh has dismissed suggestions that more players should go on to play for England after impressing at an early age and insists the opposite is the case.

The director of the Academy believes the failure of young players to make the breakthrough at Test and one-day international level would suggest the senior side is performing well, a point illustrated by Ian Bell being overlooked for the tour of South Africa due to the impressive form of England's more experienced batsmen.

Marsh said: "If you’ve got all these young players coming through who can't get a game it’s because the blokes who have already come through are holding their places and getting better.

It is a great misconception. I heard someone saying that only one out of four England Under 19 players make it through to play for England and we need to get more.

That’s wrong. We need to get less because if we get one a year these blokes are playing for 10 years. If you get the same side playing for 10 years it's going to be a good side because you don't change a winning side too often."

As far as Hoggard is concerned, he is the oldest of the pace bowlers and if his career spanned as long as Gough's he would finish in 2009. He's a similar style of bowler to Gough and will be easier to hit way before Harmison and Flintoff.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Uh... Thorpe will presumably be gone by 2010, yes.. and probably Butcher.. but Hoggard's one of the younger members of the squad: he should be near his peak at the end of the decade.

[1 August 1969, Thorpe
23 August 1972, Butcher

Being realistic, Thorpe and Butcher will not be playing international cricket by the year 2006, I think the Ashes will be the swann song for both of these players.
At 34, I should think Hoggard will be nearing the end of his international days, although he does not put the effort in as say, Pollock and McGrath.
I think a pace bowler peaks at about 26, performs well untill about 28/29, then a SLOW decline, due to natural ageing.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Looking through that list... the guys I'd see as most vulnerable to early marginalisation through wear and tear and injury would be Flintoff (that body is already creaking) and Simon Jones (surely an unsustainable bowling action).

LOL Rachael, you really have fell over your own pen this time, time and time again, in threads I have said Flintoff will suffer premature burn out, just to jog your memory, when I have insisted he should not play one day cricket.

You have penned consistently he was needed in the one day team, as WELL as the Test team, and he needed the cricket.

[Beny]

So the question is in reverse, is Australia on it's way out.
And dont take any comfort from your 3-1 series win in India, India are a better team than they showed, and where unlucky not to square the series because the rain ruined the match.
No stats, no ratings, no numbers, man for man, England I would say are now superior to Australia,

Ern you're sense of hummor is fantastic!

We will never know what might have happend in India. The Indian's were chassing records and there is no reason either team could not have won.

Why is it that Australia can send over guys like Hodge and Hussy who domminate in the English domestic season yet cant get close to the Aussie team? I am not particuarly worried about the state of our game. We may not dominate over the next 20 years but this is a country that has a history and a psych entreched in sport. Our Current team has 11 or 12 superstars in it and To suggest that we can maintain that is stupid however it is hardly likely that we will ever become a weak team.

To pretend that England right now could beat Australia is rediculous because both Statisticly (by a massive margin) and practicly speaking England would not come close. When people look back on the first decade of this centuary they are not going to go. "Wow, remember that English Team". It will be more like "Was that Aussie team the best ever".
You can harp on all you like about McGrath and Warne being past their best and Lee not being good enough to play for B'desh but it is no more than Wishfull thinking and ignoring the truth. McGrath and Warne are as fit as they have ever been and Lee is a dam good bowler who is having a bad spell.

I'm not having an ego massage here, that's just how it is.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Beny

Ern you're sense of hummor is fantastic!

We will never know what might have happend in India. The Indian's were chassing records and there is no reason either team could not have won.

True Beny, but on this occasion only for the rain India I think would have been favourites, for one reason, there was no push for the India team to get the runs, so time was not a factor.

Originally Posted by Beny

Why is it that Australia can send over guys like Hodge and Hussy who domminate in the English domestic season yet cant get close to the Aussie team?.

Me thinks you are deluding yourself here, all this proves is that Hodge and Hussy would make good county players, they have not had their success against the likes of vaughan and Flintoff.

Originally Posted by Beny

To pretend that England right now could beat Australia is rediculous because both Statisticly (by a massive margin) and practicly speaking England would not come close.

Why Beny, first I dont like and don't trust stats, but lets talk stats if you like, there is no like for like with these two sets of players to compair until after they have played each other in 2005, they will be the only stats that matter(Results)

Originally Posted by Beny

You can harp on all you like about McGrath and Warne being past their best and Lee not being good enough to play for B'desh but it is no more than Wishfull thinking and ignoring the truth. McGrath and Warne are as fit as they have ever been and Lee is a dam good bowler who is having a bad spell.
I'm not having an ego massage here, that's just how it is.

Fact is McGrath, Englands no 1 enemy is ageing, no use pretending otherwise, Warne well we will have to wait and see.as for Lee, he seems to have a lot of prolong bad spells

Whats different this time?

Sinse the last tour by England, Flintoff is fit dont underestimate that fact, Harmison is a much improved bowler, fast and aggresive.
Anderson, along with vaughan seem to play their best cricket against Australia, these I think are statistical facts, if not I stand corrected.

I am sure you are not on an ego massage Beny, I believe you there, but you have become so used to success, you can't contemplate failure, and believe me Beny, I reckon it is staring you full in the face this time.

[Beny]

You're hopes rest on Harmison (who is bloody inconsitant) and Flintoff who is great but only one player. Vaughn and Anderson may do well but they did last time too and we still won. Fact is that until you have a team that can post scores of 550+ on a regular basis you dont have a hope. Harmison is a good bowler but then he is unlikely to bowl more than 30 overs in a day (unless you want him to be a wreak). What if Harmison has a bad day (as seems to happen a lot), can you rely on Anderson or Hoggard to be a gillespie or Kaspa? Is giles even on the same map as Warne?

What about batting? How many Englishmen average over 50? How many are likely to average over 45 in their carrer? You're batting has improved but it's not within a mile of the Aussie line up yet.

Me thinks you are deluding yourself here, all this proves is that Hodge and Hussy would make good county players, they have not had their success against the likes of vaughan and Flintoff.

Quite true but Can you lot boast that sort of depth?

Why Beny, first I dont like and don't trust stats, but lets talk stats if you like, there is no like for like with these two sets of players to compair until after they have played each other in 2005, they will be the only stats that matter(Results)

Yes there is. Our mob are better.

Fact is McGrath, Englands no 1 enemy is ageing, no use pretending otherwise, Warne well we will have to wait and see.as for Lee, he seems to have a lot of prolong bad spells

How old Is swarzanneger? I still wouldent want to **** him off. McGrath is fit and that is all that matters. Lee would be a regular in the England team.

[Ernest]

Beny Harmison is not the only bowler, but make no mistake, he will work your batsmen over, as will Flintoff, and at times it can be the lesser players that reap the rewards, ie, I have seen England openers resist Marshall Ambrose and co, and then when the pressure is off, I have seen vivian Richards reap rewards.

Yes we can boast that kind of depth, Bell Pieterson, no mugs.

It remains to be seen if your mob is better, Beny with every month for McGrath tick-tock.

Lee get in the England team, I would doubt that, I would give Anthony NcGrath more chance than Lee.

Like for lke Beny,England had a better bowler than Lee, devon Malcolm, even the mighty Windies batsmen lived in fear of him at times, but he was wayward, not long after demolishing south Africa with 9 for something in their second inings, he was dropped.
What chance Lee????

[Beny]

Yes we can boast that kind of depth, Bell Pieterson, no mugs.

Keep going. Three more and you might be close.

Beny Harmison is not the only bowler, but make no mistake, he will work your batsmen over, as will Flintoff, and at times it can be the lesser players that reap the rewards, ie, I have seen England openers resist Marshall Ambrose and co, and then when the pressure is off, I have seen vivian Richards reap rewards.

So you're bad bowlers are really you're good bowlers?

Flintoff is still only a decent bowler rather than a great bowler.

[Ernest]

Well there is Collingwood not established yet, and I think Ed Smith will come good, Loye from my county Lanashire will soon be knocking on the door.

I thing the same will have happened to Aussie bowlers, in fact I know it has, the Waugh twins have picked up pressure wickets.

Flintoff can bowl in different modes, if he bowls just short of a length, Aussie batsmen may just well commit suicide going after him, he is seriosly quick when he wants to be.

He seems to be bowling as a strike bowler of late, getting more wickets, but costing a little more.

He is a great all-rounder, about 14 or so just a a bowler, will he be great, I reckon if they keep the coaches away from him.
He is not great yet, but earns his corn in the team.

Botham took well over 350 wickets, so he would have been classed as a great bowler.