English Cricket going down hill?

[Beny]

But he's not going to single handedly do what no other team in the world has done for about 7 or 8 years. Beat Australia in a series. Neither is Harmison.

Preassure wickets however rearly count for more than 2 wickets an innings and are ussulay only employed after the other bowlers are found to be struggling.

[Mike]

I agree with Beny that McGrath and Warne are bowling as well as ever. The current foursome will be a real handful in the Ashes but this time England won't be intimidated. Take my word for it Beny, the England team can't wait for this Ashes. They are a super confident team right now and I expect them to donkey-lick Sth Africa. Australia may win this Ashes - narrowly, but McGrath will be gone by the 2007 Ashes and Warne will be hammered in most venues in Oz. As you can see, I'm predicting England to regain the Ashes in 2007.

[Rachael]

Grrrr.. this thread is going downhill.. and quickly: what happened to the focus on why Aussies have gone from strength to strength since the 50s whilst England have been through couple of decades (or more) of really desperate stuff from which we may (or may not) finally be emerging.

This little ding-dong is pretty nonsensical as well: The cricism of McGrath (hugely premature) is about as misguided as the hype of Hayden (ditto).. and the mutual admiration society that is being formed around Flintoff is even more misguided: what EVER happens.. the Aussies WILL compete in 2005 (that's just too soon to see ANY decline).. and in 2007, on home turf, they WILL have the VASTLY superior batting line up.

You can argue all you like that English conditions will level the playing-field somewhat in 2005 (creating a closer contest than might otherwise be expected) and that 2007 might well see a more general leveling of the sides such that (for the first time in decades) England genuinely compete IN Australia.. but let's get real: that's the most postive spin an England follower could put on the contests.. and that STILL marks out the Aussies as favourites.

Getting back to the original question.. the Aussie production line has, for generation after generation, culminating most recently in Clarke (who looks better than ANY English prospect), ensured that the side is NEVER short on destructive batting (and the English academy has only just started trying to replicate that success). Whilst perhaps not ensuring a clear line of succession to McGrath and Warne (hard acts to follow) the system has also ensured that the Aussie attack is not going to sink to the point where it represents a weakness.

Put it this way: even if the Aussies FAILED to replace McGrath and Warne effectively.. they would still have Gillespie (at least the match of Harmison), Kasprowicz (more than a match for Hoggard), Lee (more than a match for Anderson / Jones), a bevy of competent spinners (all a match for Giles).. and that's all before we get to the various bowlersr in the domestic context who are as likely to develop into great bowlers as our own academy players.

I short: we're finally establishing a sporting culture, training culture and support infrastructure that will ensure a production line of young English players that will (for the first time ina generation) allow us to start MATCHING the Aussie production line... but that's all we're talking about - playing catch up with a nation which has had those things in place for so long they've been orders of magnitude stronger for more than a generation.

[Ernest]

Rachael,

The thread was England going down the pan, when it is plain to see we aint.

I think THIS team is good enough to beat Australia, in England or in Australia, because it is full of confidence, a long time lacking in English cricket.
I say this team, because in real terms we are going down hill maybe, we all saw what happened in Australia when Flintoff and Jones where injured, and I fear if a couple of main bowlers are injured, we have NO cover, and it is no good with respect Rachael saying bring on Saggeres, who is not good enough, or Caddick who is to old, the truth is, we have no replacements for Flintoff and Harmison, we are in the main is what you see in the present team bowling wise, is ALL that we have got.

We have IMHO the best cricket team in the world, but when it's gone it's gone, no young ones coming through, except maybe Mahmood.

Ern

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ernest

The thread was England going down the pan, when it is plain to see we aint.

No.. read the first post: Beny was asking about "recent generations": what he wants to know is why things have been SO bad for SO long.

Originally Posted by Ernest

We have IMHO the best cricket team in the world, but when it's gone it's gone, no young ones coming through, except maybe Mahmood.

Bizarre: I can't make head nor tail of this.

I'm not one to get carried away with youngsters before they have stepped up to the plate, consistently, in a wide variety of contexts.. but even so the reason to be hopeful that we've FINALLY turned the corner on decades of under-achievement is that the systems are finally in place to ensure that things continue to get BETTER.

The first academy batsmen are only JUST (in the form of Strauss and Bell) knocking on the door: they stand out as brighter prospects than we've had in a long time.. and are at the front of what promises (now that Marsh and the counties are finally sorting things out) a production line of genuine Test batsmen that might eventually be as reliable as the Aussie production line.

You talk as if the strength lies in the current squad.. but I'd see more promise in the younger generation: the guys who are going to be at the heart of a team genuinely competing with the Aussies IN Australia (hopefully in 2007) are going to be the promising successors to Tresco and Butcher.

Bowling wise? We've Harmison and Harmison alone operating at the very highest level right now.. but with a fair base of competent supprt. The guy isn't ploughing the lonely furrow that Fraser once ploughed.. but equally.. we really need to be putting out 3 bowlers at that level to match the Aussies.

Without getting carried away.. that now (with the tailored development programmes now emerging from the academy) looks a real possibility. Sure, we're stuck with struggling along on the back of Hoggard, Giles, Flintoff and Jones / Anderson for this winter.. and maybe a while after that.. but for the first time in a long time it seems the alternatives ARE coming through.. and the depth IS coming.

If the England side of 2007-2009 is as weak as the current side I will be very, very gravely disappointed: this turn around has the LOOK (to me) of something better.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

No.. read the first post: Beny was asking about "recent generations": what he wants to know is why things have been SO bad for SO long.

I know, Mike hit the nail on the head, and you have, and I have, we have never had a settled team, we have had the players just as good as Australia, they never had a Botham, then there was Ramps, what did he do wrong?, where did Crawley go?, I know you did not like him, but it is part of what I mean, Devon Malolm warts and all, was streets ahead of who replaced him.
Caddick at his best, was unplayable as good as Pollock, Harmison, McGrath, Flintoff, but was prone to injury.
They did noy keep the faith with Hick, Troughton came and went, we never had a settled team, and we where richer then in talent than what we are now.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Bizarre: I can't make head nor tail of this.


You talk as if the strength lies in the current squad.. but I'd see more promise in the younger generation: the guys who are going to be at the heart of a team genuinely competing with the Aussies IN Australia (hopefully in 2007) are going to be the promising successors to Tresco and Butcher.

Bowling wise? We've Harmison and Harmison alone operating at the very highest level right now.. but with a fair base of competent supprt. The guy isn't ploughing the lonely furrow that Fraser once ploughed.. but equally.. we really need to be putting out 3 bowlers at that level to match the Aussies.

.

The strength does lie in the current squad Rachael, batting I can see hope, although it will be hard to replace Thorpe and Butcher(The unsung hero's)
Harmison is class, if a bit inconsistent, Flintoff is good, he is rated.Giles pulls his weight, Hoggard on his day, and Anderson.

What I mean Rachael, and it is not bizzare, who is coming in the future in the bowling department?, who would take over if harmison and Flintoff where injured?, simple as that.Who are the young seamers coming through, except mahmood/.

Ern

[Beny]

Ern,


No cricket jouno woth his name would say that England can Beat Australia because they are high on confidence. I dont care how confident they are, they dont have the quality or the depth to beat us. For all the Hype Harmison is reciving ,his bowling average is only so good because he did really well against weak nations. Thats not to say he might not be the next big thing but to suggest that he already is is just plain nuts. Flintoff is in a simmiler position where although he is quality, he has yet to get the 3 or 4 years of good proformances behind him before we name him heir to the throne of Botham.

Ern, how you can possibly suggest that after beating two of the weakest nations in world test cricket, that England are the best in the world, escapes me.

Hayden Tresco
Langer Vaughn
Ponting Strauss
Martyn Butcher
Lehman Thorpe
Clarke Jones
Gilly Flintoff
Warne Giles
Gillespie Harmison
Kaspa Hoggard
McGrath Anderson

Do I need to analyze or is it obvious that there is no comparsion?

[Milo]

Originally Posted by Ernest

We have IMHO the best cricket team in the world, but when it's gone it's gone, no young ones coming through, except maybe Mahmood.

Ern

Do you actually believe this Ern? England will get spanked next year....of that there is very little doubt. There are far too many weak spots. You will be relying on three/four player producing the form of their life all at once to even get close.

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Originally Posted by Beny

Ern,

Hayden Tresco
Langer Vaughn
Ponting Strauss
Martyn Butcher
Lehman Thorpe
Clarke Jones
Gilly Flintoff
Warne Giles
Gillespie Harmison
Kaspa Hoggard
McGrath Anderson

Do I need to analyze or is it obvious that there is no comparsion?

And the winners are........

Haydn (closer if we were talking ODIs but we're not)
Langer - Strauss - Draw (will be next summer)
Ponting (butcher - reliable as he is is probably the worst no.3 in world cricket)
Vaughan (by a short head in english conditions and only against the aussies ! martyn the better bat overall)
Thorpe (Just- why dont any of our bats bowl ant more - lehman offer a useful dimension)
Flintoff (only if its seaming obviouysly a better bowler, not as good a bat - too flat and i'd bring clarke who is looking a very class act)
Gilly (duh !)
Warne (obviously - Giles will be hoping for some real dusty tracks so he isnt completely ebarrased)
Harmison (Just - gillespie is the best seam bowler aus have IMHO)
Kaspa (hugley underated - will get alot of wickets in english conditions - rembember reiffel ?)
Mcgrath (what a silly question ! the number of wickets he'll take will outway the number of overs jimmy bowls)

BUT england can at least compete now.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Beny

Ern, how you can possibly suggest that after beating two of the weakest nations in world test cricket, that England are the best in the world, escapes me.

Hayden Tresco
Langer Vaughn
Ponting Strauss
Martyn Butcher
Lehman Thorpe
Clarke Jones
Gilly Flintoff
Warne Giles
Gillespie Harmison
Kaspa Hoggard
McGrath Anderson
Do I need to analyze or is it obvious that there is no comparsion?

Trescothick, Tresco on form, to close to call.
Vaughan has the edge over Langer.
Strauss,new but if he keeps his form, not a lot in it.
Thorpe has it over Lehman
Jones, duno, here is a time to prove himself, or get out.
Flintoff the pick of the 22
Giles, closer than you think on this one.
Harmison by a mile
kaspa, duno
Beny, Anderson, if he plays like he did the last time he played against Austraia, he gets the vote over the ageing one.
Living in what used to be Beny, History is against Australia, they have to begin to fail. no one team stays on top forever.

Originally Posted by Milo 23525

Do you actually believe this Ern? England will get spanked next year....of that there is very little doubt. There are far too many weak spots. You will be relying on three/four player producing the form of their life all at once to even get close.

Milo, I think you are like the other half of England supporters like myself, you have not enough belief in the team, Australia also will need their team to perform all at the same time.

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child 23536

Mcgrath (what a silly question ! the number of wickets he'll take will outway the number of overs jimmy bowls)

BUT england can at least compete now.

Anderson seems to bowl his best against Australia, McGrath, and believe me, I do feel sorry for him, I think the ordeal of playing a form team will be to much for him, he will probably start limping when Flintoff, Tresco or vaughan has hit him for a six or some, they will single him out for the treatment.