3rd Test South Africa vs England

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

OK Ernest.. if you think Butcher's so weak let's compare his 2 knocks of note with Flintoff's two knocks of note.
Roll on to the 2nd innings of this last Test where Butcher "failed": he made just 13 runs.. But actually batted for an hour and 40 minutes… helping advance the score by some 41 runs… but more significantly seeing off some 22 overs in the cause of saving the match.

I can't for sure say who is weak, and who is not, with the way this tour has been organised, hardly any match practice, and not much aclimatisation..
But how you defend Butcher getting out fo 13 runs, even though he batted for an hour and a half, that could well indicate lack of form, and scratching about for runs, and Rachael occupations of the creace was not the order of the days at that stage, as a draw seemed very unlikley

Originally Posted by Rachael

Flintoff, by contrast, "succeeded"... posting 60 and helping advance the score by 114.. but actually only batted for 46 minutes longer than Butcher.

Rachael Flintoff contrebuted in two ways, he stayed with Thorpe, and posted 60 valubale runs.

Originally Posted by Rachael

I'm not putting down Fintoff's most recent innings: it was, by all accounts, a solid, measured performance.. but that success didn't do that much more to make the game safe than did Butcher's "failure".
Some players are worth more than their runs: Butcher is one.

With repect Rachael, Flintoffs innings did make the game a lot safer, don't forget when Flintoff was out, there were only 5 wickets down.
I have respect for Butcher, you can only say he is worth more that his runs sugest,only so many times, the same with vaughan.Flintoff as a much harder match roll, than both physicaly.

But at least Vaughan and Flintoff contrebuted in other ways, Flintoff got four wickets, and Vaughan did well as a captain.
Think Vaughan is going to have to do more OFF the field, to match what he does on.

Originally Posted by Rachael

ps. not sure quite what you are suggesting about Flintoff in the bowling.... Flintoff SHOULD have been the more pentrating . but he dropped far too many short.. and offered far too many loose balls.... and as I recall took at least one of his 2 wickets with a truly rank delivery.

The pitch really did not suit any type of bowler, maybe this would have been a time a medium pacer would have come into his own.
None of the pace bowlers on any side was penetrating, I mean look at England second innings score.Flintoff bowled as did the others in extreme heat, they were not prepared for, and in the circumstances did well.(4 wickets is not to be sneezed at).

Originally Posted by Rachael

Pps. Hoggard WAS more economical... but that's pretty irrelevent: there's a huge difference between being economical whilst pitching the ball up and landing it in the right areas to make the batsmen play (which Hoggard seems to be mastering).. and being economical "Alan Mullally style"... meaning by whizzing lots of pointless deliveries through in ways that demand nothing of the batsmen (as your man has increasingly been doing).

Hoggard was slower than the others, and at times bowled just as short, quite a few bouncers from Hoggard, and there was humidity to help Hoggard, Flintoff could have bowled more economicaly, by bowling just back of a good length, as only he can do that so well, but these days he bowls under order to attack.
It worked in part, Polllock will have sore fingers, and look at Giles, but the bowlers who kept it up on that pitch, went for less.
But read the whole game stats, not much in it.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Hoggard kept Kallis to just 26 off 63 balls at 2.52 per over (with just two boundariess.. one every 5 overs). Kallis took Flintoff for 42 runs off just 52 balls at 4.85 per over with a boundary every over.

Flintoff came on with the order to bomb Kallis out, and it did not work, however if you look at the match as a whole, not a lot of difference.
Hoggard was that bit slower, thus harder to get away onthat pitch.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Curiously, Harmison actually did OK stats wise in that breakdown... but that just shows their weakness - Harmison was droping 3-4 or even 5 an over short rather than just the 1 an over that was called for... so managed a stack of dot balls - economical but pointless.

Was it pointless or economical, maybe he bowled that way in the end, because he seemed more unlikly to get wickets.

PS All the England bowlers deserve credit, giving the all on that pitch, and in that heat, and not having muck match practice.
This is one of the reasons I am not calling for Butchers head, just poor organisation.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

Well the post i started about 10 days ago was whether or not Vaughan should captain. I know he is good but don't runs come before captaincy. Then again, apart from Butch (who is incredibly out of sorts) and Thorpe (who is in the twilight) there is no one with enough experience to captain England

You have to leave vaughan there Paoli. he is a good captain, see if he improves, Butch may come good, but Key is breathing down his neck.
Thorpe is better of not captaining England, it would get on top of him, Butcher is to out of form, and with Vaughan we are unbeaten 13 tests or so, no we will have to pass on that for a while.

[Kirsty Harris]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Roll on to the 2nd innings of this last Test where Butcher "failed": he made just 13 runs.. But actually batted for an hour and 40 minutes… helping advance the score by some 41 runs… but more significantly seeing off some 22 overs in the cause of saving the match.

Rachael,

It's interesting to note that on another thread, you have stated that Trescothick looks 'a shambles' when he bats. This is not an entirely unfair point. However, IMO, Butcher looked like more of a shambles in this game than any other England batsmen, including Steve Harmision!! Batting for an hour and 40 minutes in neither here nor there, unless you actually manage to put some runs on the board, in the circumstances he found himself. In the first innings, he was just hanging around waiting for a ball that had his name on it. In the second innings, he stuck in for a while and at least managed to last until the next morning, but none the less nothing significnant was acheived by him being there beyond that! And surely by the time he came in to bat, England were looking to win the game, not save it?!

[freddie flintoff 142]

good evening my fellow jungle friends,

well waste of a day for me, watch 20min of footy at burnley then it get called off in a storm, nice!
it seems that butcher is coming for unfair/fair dogging.

i have rose tinted glasses on this to a certain extent that i like mark and has never let anyone down in effort and batting since his re introduction to the side in 2001. however...........

butcher has not been in form, even his 79 in PE was not convinsing at all, but play bad and score runs, sign of a good player. he doesn't look right at the moment, his trigger movement before the ball is released is irregular and causing his footmovement for the shot to be off (he does not often get bowled and boxing day shows his foot movement is not upto scratch at the moment) also he doesnt look fit, yes he looks strong at the moment but seems to be lacking, shall we call it match fitness, maybe the 15 a day habit does catch up with you (i shall take note).

rob key has been a revalation since he came back and it cant be long before he's back in the side, but also there is pressure from other areas, ian bell, paul collingwood and kev peiterson.

in all, personally, and this is only a personal view, play butch tomorrow, if he fails again then its time to rethink. but he does seem to turn it on when he needs, i hope he does!


steve harmison............... cant put me finger on it, can only guess that hype has got to him, and he hasn't had the overs under his belt he would like, but neither has hoggy or fred, giles and jones went to zim so had a few more. But our attack is doing well without steve firing, which can only be good, because he WILL get a bag full at some time and WILL have at leasr one-of-those spells where it happens everyball.

as for vaughany... similar to steve, needs time at the crease (same for butch) and his class will come through, he's too much of a world class player (i still believe he is world class) for him to carry on like this, the only problem is he got runs in zim, against weaker attack granted, and got big runs, so why he aint gettin them at the mmoment is a mystery, its not like he looks out of touch.

[freddie flintoff 142]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

Btw, i reckon that Freddie Flintoff song is great. Would FreddieFlintoff142 or anyone else know the words? lol thanks

i missed that one, could it be there's only one freddie flintoff?

[Paoli]

Lol nahh....It starts like this

(To the tune of Fred Flinstone)

Flintoff, Freddie Flintoff, he's the greatest man in history

[Paoli]

Bdw...Incredibly disappointed to see Hashim Amla retain his spot over Martin Van Jaarsveld. I think only Gibbs and Ntini deserve spots---Langeveldt is up in the air.

I can't believe Amla has scored any runs in first class cricket because to me he looked as if the only way he could possibly be getting paid in the series is by working at the various snack bars.

[Ernest]

Well done Englands bowlers, in difficult circumstances they bowled really well, despite taking only 4 wickets, and a poor umpire decision or 2.
They stuck to their task, and never let their heads drop.
Well done England, you bowled well, and should have had a wicket or 2 more.

[freddie flintoff 142]

unforntuately i have been workin since 8 this morning, and finish at 5 so miss, well all of the day today, and i work in the only pub in blackburn without a tv!

however me dad says they bowled well and the reports on't tinernet say we could have had more and kallis had living dangerously during a short spell in his innings. however at least they'll be 5 down fair soon tomorrow, hashim "bad impression of chanderpaul" amla surely can't last that long!

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

can't believe Amla has scored any runs in first class cricket because to me he looked as if the only way he could possibly be getting paid in the series is by working at the various snack bars.

In actual fact, he usually earns his rent by doing humerous impressions of WG Grace.