Trescothick

[Trescothick]

I agree maybe with Butcher.. But Tresco is a world class player IMHO and he is more skilled than Vaughan. Vaughan is ok but he lacks power. If Tresco wants a boundary: He'll get one and maybe even a six. Vaughan can get them but he struggles more..

[Pete]

Nah, Vaughan is seriously more skilled than Trez. I do like Trez, but when Vaughan is in form he's just great. He can hit boundries as much as the next guy and against all bowlers.

I just wish he'd come back into form, there's only been one real meaningful ton from him since he became captain. Against Sri Lanka in the second Test.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Trescothick

I agree maybe with Butcher.. But Tresco is a world class player IMHO and he is more skilled than Vaughan. Vaughan is ok but he lacks power. If Tresco wants a boundary: He'll get one and maybe even a six. Vaughan can get them but he struggles more..

When Vaughan was in form he could get his share of boundaries, I agree with a lot you say about Tresco, but when in form, vaughan gets boundaries with timing, on form Vaughan is class, that was why he was world no 1.

Originally Posted by Pete 31282

I just wish he'd come back into form, there's only been one real meaningful ton from him since he became captain. Against Sri Lanka in the second Test.

Yep you and me both Pete, he needs to get back to basics, he at the moment does not look like making a score.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Trescothick

I agree maybe with Butcher.. But Tresco is a world class player IMHO and he is more skilled than Vaughan. Vaughan is ok but he lacks power. If Tresco wants a boundary: He'll get one and maybe even a six. Vaughan can get them but he struggles more..

What a bizarre way of measuring class!

Most of the former profesionals that one hears discussing current Test cricket seem agreed that the one thing, above all else, that marks out the really classy players is the time they seemingly have to play the ball. Nothing's rushed, they are able to adjust effortlessly to late movement, and as a consequence they are able to play the ball delicately, with soft hands and great touch... using the pace that is on the ball to guide if effortlessly through even the tiniest of gaps.

That seems to be a fairly standard way of measuring class.

I'm not suggesting that classy batsmen have to match up to some ethereal ideal. Lara, for instance, is routinely cited as extremely classy, but has hugely exagerated movements prior to making contact with the ball. He actually brings the bat down a long way.. but he all but stops it just at the point of impact so that he's stock still. Hardly a "model" player. Same goes for VVS Laxman.. whose footwork is diabolical but whose touch is (reputedly) exquisite.

Contrary to what you suggest.. I'd say that what marks out ALL classy players, though, is a remarkable ability to score quickly without seemingly needing to put power into their shots. One of the WI bowlers noted this of Thorpe last year: he was awestruck by the effortless way in which Thorpe just used the pace on the ball and great placement to score more quicky than others who tried to blast it into the middle of next week.

Of course.. the thing that many would say marks out Thorpe's class is that he does NOT rely on boundaries. His century in the last innings was typical: something like 40 of the runs came in singles. That's not a thing to be criticised.. it's a sign that he's so damned good that bowlers are incapable of pinning him down.

Tresco's one who has to swing at the ball. He picks a line and tries to give the ball a good thump. He's generally, therefore, less in control of his shots. He's also far, far less able to adjust to late swing or late seam movement: he tends to just pick a line, flash hard and hope. Equally, he's no great shakes at absorbing the energy from the ball at dropping it with "soft hands" so that it falls short of the close catchers.

I'd not picking on Tresco here: Flintoff's no better, and nor (going back) were Stewart or Robin Smith... and the same could be said of a stack of players from around the world. Thing is.. when the guys who actually know what they are taling about (ex pros, coaches, etc) talk about Vaughan they say he is different, that he's actually got it.

As they all seem agreed on this.. I'm inclined to accept their judgement: we seem to have one very special player as the English captain!

[eng fan]

So Flintoff's batting has real class then? Looks like Ernest has finally won you over!

[R W S]

Originally Posted by Ernest

When Vaughan was in form he could get his share of boundaries, I agree with a lot you say about Tresco, but when in form, vaughan gets boundaries with timing, on form Vaughan is class, that was why he was world no 1.
Yep you and me both Pete, he needs to get back to basics, he at the moment does not look like making a score.

From what I have seen (on Sky) of this series Vaughan has actually looked in pretty good nick. He has looked good every time he's come to the crease. Not for him the grafting 79 from 193 of Butch in PE or the scratchy 47 from 139 balls of Banger. That effort by Tresco played him into form as I witnessed with delight last week. The same could not be said of Butch though.

The captain's 53 in four innings have come off 110. He got a fantastic delivery from Steyn (the best ball of the series so far) and a dodgy decision for a caught behind off the arm guard. He's not quite there but he is perhaps one of only three England players who would command a place in the Aussie side.

This track in Cape Town has been produced so the test lasts five days and the administrators at Newlands need the revenue as they are currently in recievership. Expect the skipper to put up a decent score here in what looks like being a stale draw - shame after the gourmet offering of Durban.

[eng fan]

You never know - if we can knock them over for 350-400 then get a lead of 200-odd Gilo could come into play on a wearing pitch. For a side so packed with batsmen, the Saffers are a bit of a one-man show and Kallis can't keep producing. I agree that Vaughan could get a big score in this match.

Even if the game is a draw it suits us - we have the one-nil lead.

[eng fan]

Originally Posted by Pete

Nah, Vaughan is seriously more skilled than Trez. I do like Trez, but when Vaughan is in form he's just great. He can hit boundries as much as the next guy and against all bowlers.

I just wish he'd come back into form, there's only been one real meaningful ton from him since he became captain. Against Sri Lanka in the second Test.

To be fair, the two at Lords against the West Indies were important and brilliant.

[Ernest]

RWS,
It's a strage phenomenon that a player out of nick, nearly always seems to look good at the begining of his innings, then he will get a corker of a delivery.
And if there is any bad luck going, they get it, like the last Test in Durban, Vaughan was given out, in a dubious manner.
Also every wrong shot they make, will go to a fielder, or they will play on.
This to me sums up a class player out of form.

Ramprakash always looked good, at the beginning of his innings, but then for some reason he would get himself out in the 20s, he must hold the world record for concecative 20s.

I hope vaughan comes good, he must be lacking in confidence, and needs a few scores behind him.
Yes our bowlers played really well on that Cape Town pitch, one thing though RW, if they have produced this pitch to last, it gives our bowlers much needed practice, a caper South Africa may well regret.

[eng fan]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Tresco's one who has to swing at the ball. He picks a line and tries to give the ball a good thump. He's generally, therefore, less in control of his shots. He's also far, far less able to adjust to late swing or late seam movement: he tends to just pick a line, flash hard and hope. Equally, he's no great shakes at absorbing the energy from the ball at dropping it with "soft hands" so that it falls short of the close catchers.

I'd not picking on Tresco here: Flintoff's no better, and nor (going back) were Stewart or Robin Smith... and the same could be said of a stack of players from around the world. Thing is.. when the guys who actually know what they are taling about (ex pros, coaches, etc) talk about Vaughan they say he is different, that he's actually got it.

I can't believe you're still saying that Trescothick can only hit boundaries, or (in other posts) that he can't graft out a score when out of form or get better during a Test series. In the first match of this series, Trescothick was out of form, out of touch, out of practice, yet he played an innings his detractors would have us believe he was incapable of - he hung around and grafted for 189 minutes and 42 overs against some of the best bowlers in world cricket, hit only four fours in a score of 47, allowed Strauss, the form man, to put on 80-odd, only ended up getting out to what was a decent delivery from Steyn and generally made life very easy for the Number 3. And in doing so, he spent valuable time at the crease and played himself into form. No, it wasn't pretty. But when Graham Thorpe or Mark Butcher plays such an innings, you're purring at their ability to make runs whilst out of form and do a job for the team. But when Trescothick plays such an innings, he's ungainly, disorganised and not Test class. Double standards?