Trescothick

[eng fan]

I'm writing this because I feel Trescothick is a much-maligned player. The guy's scored 4000 Test runs, averages 43, has won many matches for England with his batting, has consistently been England's highest rated batsman in the PWc ratings and is part of one of the best opening partnerships in Test history but still seems to be regarded by some on this board as an inferior weak link in the batting line-up. For me, his two major weaknesses are this:
1) an extremely poor 50/100 conversion rate
2) poor away form

His strengths are
1) consistent starter
2) capable of taking a game away from a side
3) part of a good partnership with Strauss
4) Best player of spin in the England side
5) Averages 43 in Tests after playing every side in Test cricket.


I know some people have a problem with his lack of footwork, but his technique obviously works for him, and it hasn't stopped him averaging over 40 in Test cricket over a four year period. Graham Gooch didn't have much footwork, but whether you liked his style or not you can't deny he was a top player for England. If you don't like Trescothick's style of play, that's fine - we can all have aesthetic judgments about players - but I think it is very harsh to deny his ability because of aesthetics. I didn't like the way Mark Richardson played when he toured England earlier this year, but I didn't let that aesthetic judgement cloud the judgment that he was a very effective and good player for NZ, and very certainly a Test-class opener. Aesthetically, Trescothick is not my favourite England player - I think that Michael Vaughan is peerless in this English side in that regard - but it's interesting to compare their two records, as Tres and Vaughan made their debuts at approximately the same time and have played a similar number of matches against similar opposition.

Mat I NO Runs HS1 HS2 HS3 Ave 100 50 0

Trescothick 56 107 10 4179 219 161 132 43.08 9 24 8
Vaughan 52 93 6 3830 197 195 183 44.02 13 10 5

The only thing that you can separate them with stats wise is the conversion rate of 50s to 100s, where Vaughan is majestic. Other than that, there isn't much to pick. And yet still Trescothick gets all this stick for not being Test class.I'm not asking for people to see him as the next Lara or Tendulkar. I just think it would nice if we could recognise the crucial role he plays in this England side, and how much weaker it would be without him.

[freddie flintoff 142]

hi england fan

i agree that tres comes in for unfair stick (but everyone has their opinions), and i agree with your point, what i would say is, and in this not saying that tres is not good enough or should be dropped, far from the case.

tres has a habit of getting out the same way nearly everytime, caught behind off careless drive or flat footed prod. the odd occation out at square leg sweeping. this is the part of him that gets everybody *********** off. now we all have batting flaws, in fact i'd love to see the % of times vaughan is caught 1st slip - keeper because i think that would be a high percentage!

tres is a good international player, infurriating because he can be great if he could make more 100's, score a few more away from home and stop dangling his bat outside offstick.

[Rachael]

Can we distinguish between class and effectiveness? No one, I trust, would claim that Tresco has the former (he's neither the time, the soft hands or the touch of a great stokeplayer nor the technique to inpire as a man you'd entrust to bat for your life)... but equally.... would anyone dispute tht he's been one of Fletcher's mostinspired picks in terms off effectiveness?

Since Butcher came back in 2000 / 2001 there's been virtually nothing to seperate the two players in terms of headline stats... and this is where I have a problem: Tresco does as well as he does.. and gets treated as an essential member of the side... and Butcher does equally well (arguably better, given that he's been the more likely of the two to actualy score when the runs are really needed) and yet he's the one being singled out as the next man for the chop.

Both solid workhorses.. both, ultimately, expendable. Biggest difference is that the one is a fantastic ODI player and can therefore be regarded as a core man of the England setup. Doesn't make him the better of the two as a Test batsman.

[Trigger]

Yep,

Trescothick comes in for far to much stick, sure he has had his bad patches, which player has not, look at Vaughan at the moment.

[Trescothick]

I would say Trescothick is one of the best batsmen in the world and it is difficult to argue with that. His techique is different and you know what that confuses bowlers and fielders and it works to his advantage. I've seen him hit a couple of stray shots to slip but i've also seen him hit some stunning 4's and 6's which work brilliantly for the team. Marcus always steps in in times of difficulty to bring England out of almost certain defeat as i commented in another thread. One of the most exciting and consistent players for England. They would not be on such a high winning streak if not for Tresco.

Good thread, he deserves more recognition.

[Ernest]

Rachael,

If Trescothick was removed from the England "Test Team" tomorrow, there is no obvious choice of openers to put in his place, there would be one hell of a gap, at the top of the order.

Butcher on the other hand, has a replacment waiting, Rob Key, that is one big difference between the two.

[Trescothick]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Can we distinguish between class and effectiveness? No one, I trust, would claim that Tresco has the former (he's neither the time, the soft hands or the touch of a great stokeplayer nor the technique to inpire as a man you'd entrust to bat for your life)... but equally.... would anyone dispute tht he's been one of Fletcher's mostinspired picks in terms off effectiveness?

Yes, Trecothick is a class batsmen. He plays some beautifal cricket in the majority of his strokes. Just the odd couple are a bit messy but every batsmen has them. But as you say hes effective.

Since Butcher came back in 2000 / 2001 there's been virtually nothing to seperate the two players in terms of headline stats... and this is where I have a problem: Tresco does as well as he does.. and gets treated as an essential member of the side... and Butcher does equally well (arguably better, given that he's been the more likely of the two to actualy score when the runs are really needed) and yet he's the one being singled out as the next man for the chop.

I do hasten to disagree with this. Butcher is a class batter bt he is no where near the form Trsocthick is. I have rarely seen Butcher in the last few years been scoring runs when needed. When was he last put up for M-O-M? I can't remember. Tresco on the other hand has put on some stunning performances. Remember the 200 and something he put on. That was brilliant.

[eng fan]

Since Butcher came back in 2000 / 2001 there's been virtually nothing to seperate the two players in terms of headline stats... and this is where I have a problem: Tresco does as well as he does.. and gets treated as an essential member of the side... and Butcher does equally well (arguably better, given that he's been the more likely of the two to actualy score when the runs are really needed) and yet he's the one being singled out as the next man for the chop.

Both solid workhorses.. both, ultimately, expendable. Biggest difference is that the one is a fantastic ODI player and can therefore be regarded as a core man of the England setup. Doesn't make him the better of the two as a Test batsman.

I would agree that Butcher has been a little unlucky recently, but part of that is due to the fact that, as Ernest points out, there is a ready made replacement for Butcher. He was also very unlucky with injuries and has been going through a bout of very poor form. I would also say that Trescothick has performed better than him in the time they've both been in the side together. I also think it is untrue to say that Trescothick is incapable of playing himself in. In the first test here, Trescothick made a painstaking 47 that resembled one of Butcher or Hussain's efforts in the West Indies. He clearly wasn't in form, but he gutsed it out, let Strauss, the form man, do most of the runscoring and made the situation much easier for Butcher when he did get out, because 100-odd runs were already on the board and the bowlers were tired.


And why on earth should both Butcher and Trescothick be viewed as expendable? When a team is playing well and has confidence, it often results in players playing above themselves and doing things we never previously thought possible. I believe this has happened with Matthew Hoggard over the past year or so. It's also true that a lot of cricketers, especially English batsmen (cf Gooch) get better as they get older and can have their most productive spells in their late 30s. I believe that Trescothick can continue to improve as a batsman - why on earth should we be considering someone who averages 43 in Tests as "expendable"?

[Trescothick]

I been reading many articles in huge praise for Trescothick this year:

Nicky Oppenheimer XI at Randjesfontein.

Trescothick leads England to opening tour win

Stand-in captain Marcus Trescothick (85*) and Robert Key (87) enjoyed a run feast on the first day of England’s tour of South Africa as the tourists eased to victory Nicky Oppenheimer XI at Randjesfontein.

England vs West Indies ODI

Trescothick shines in England win

A brutal attack staged by Marcus Trescothick quickly shattered any chance of the West Indies gaining an ODI series win at home, which has been so rare in recent years. The game was really a tale of three innings. Two of them came from the English victors, Trescothick with 82 from 57 balls and Andrew Strauss with his second consecutive ODI half-century, 66 from 85 balls

Result: England won by 5 wickets
Series: Drawn 2-2
Man of the Match: ME Trescothick (Eng)
Man of the Series: ME Trescothick (Eng)


and theres 100s more...


PS: 82 from 57 balls to me doesnt suggest sloppy as i've read in many topics...

[Rachael]

You can easily praise Trescothick's efforts and effectiveness.. and say he merits a place in Test cricket... without suggesting that he has any great class: there are many cricketers who fully deserve their place at the highest level of the game who lack real class - Tresco's not the first and will undoubtedly not be the last.

Hussain lacked the class of Ramprakash: no question about it. Who was more effective?

Stewart lacked the class of Atherton: both pulled their weight as openers.

Steve Waugh lacked the class of Mark WAugh: Steve was more successful.

It's also worth making a clear distinction between journeymen and top international players: Tresco's a damn fine journeyman player.. as is Butcher... but neither have (even at their best) played to a level that would have guaranteed a place in the Aussie side.. and neither have done so well that a selector would get overly concerned about having to replace them.

Selectors are looking for players like Vaughan and Thorpe... or better still like Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn, Katich, Clarke and Gillespie... players who can go one level higher than the likes of Hussain, Butcher and Tresco. They quite happily TAKE solid journeymen... but that's not what they seek.

I don't think anyone would worry, overmuch, if either player vanished from the scene int he near future: neither have really shown their capable of stepping up to the sort of level that Vaughan touched in that summer in Australia... and with guys like Key, Bell, Collingwood and Pietersen queued up waiting for places... the feeder system is looking in good shape.

Doesn't mean we should be wishing either player out of the setup: I'd stick with both. Just means that in the grand scheme of things... Strauss, Vaughan, Thorpe and Flintoff are far more critical.