A few thoughts on England

[Irish Left Armer]

I know I don't post too often but I've been watching a lot of the Eng vs SA series so I'd like to give my verdict so far, especially reading some of the panic and rash posts being made on the BBC messageboard.

England will probably lose this match, not definitely but more than likely. If so it will be 1-1, with 2 tests to go. Very interesting to see how England react to this defeat. They should have been 2-0 up before this test and now it will probably be 1 a piece. Bad for morale. However I have faith in this "New" England's backbone and I believe they will bounce back.

For a start they could definitely use winning the toss. Vaughan has lost 16 out of 22 tosses since becoming captain. Is that possibly more than a coincidence? He always calls heads, perhaps with a bit of practice other captains can bring about a tails call more often that not. Certainly it's possible to get a lot of favourable outcomes if you flip a coin in the air. However I suppose the coin hits the pitch at the games. Anyone have the figures for how many tosses Vaughan has won away from home i.e the ones he has to call for?

England's old problem of batting collapses seems to be back, too many players are out of form, runs need to be made in the first innings. Vaughan seems to be coming in for a huge amount of stick, I don't see the point in dropping him etc, why upset things further? We know he can do it, he deserves an extended period to show us that he still can. Anyone else think that he is moving too much in the crease, he's certainly not getting into the right positions at the moment. I'm not sure if he knows what his role in the team is, is he a strokemaker or an Atherton like accumulator, when he first came into Tests he was a blocker who could drive beautifully, then he had a run of great form and produced that pull shot which made bowling to him very difficult as he would pick up on anything even marginally short of length. Now he is out of form and batting at 4 which means he is coming up against an older ball which isn't coming off the bat as fast. Regardless of all this, he needs to be given time.

Harmison is also very worrying at the moment, he has reverted back to what he was like before he went mad in the West Indies, he is capable of unplayable deliveries but his line and length is gone and he's all over the place right now. He is still relatively inexperienced however and England must hope that he will come good as he bowls on these pitches more.

On the whole I believe England are a better all round side that the Saffers, too many of Englands big players aren't contributing as they should and South Africa are being propped up by their two world class players, Kallis and Pollock. Without them England would probably be winning 3-0 already.

As a side note it's nice to see Graeme Smith not making too many runs, I have a great dislike for him.

I still think England will win the series barring injuries (Flintoff might be going home and Hoggard is also struggling).

[Rachael]

Over-reaction on the part of the "fans" has been far too familiar now for far, far too long.. and the obsession with "the last 12 months" strikes me as just typical.

If England started turned a corner, cricketing wise, then I'd date it to a lot more than 12 months ago: the real progress was made 4-5 years ago... and whilst there was a bit of a lull due to injury setbacks (notably Gough, Caddick and White)... the "lows" and "highs" since then have been overstated.. with too much attention paid to results and headline performances and too little to the essential depth of the team.

This time last year the English team had just complete 6 very encouraging months: an injury depleted side had managed to do pretty much as well against SA in England as this current team are doing against SA in SA... and playing without first choice bowlers against a very, VERY tough SL side in SL (a side that has since pushed Australia as hard as any team has pushed them in years) the side was showing all the hallmarks of Hussain's captaincy - a real stubborness and toughness based on a real collective effort (think the improved bowling of Flintoff and the dogged batting of Colingwood, Batty, Giles and Read).

At that point many English "fans" were all doom and gloom.. and unnecessarily so.

Roll on 12 months... and in a year in which Tresco, Vaughan, Hussain, Butcher, Thorpe, Giles, Hoggard, Anderson and Simon Jones have carried on pretty much as before... and have been showing that the bedrock of the side is pretty much as we are seeing now in SA... meaning better than England ever were at any point in the 1990s... and well enough to copete at Test level with most opponents.... all the attention has been focussed on just 3 players (Strauss, Flintoff, Harmison) who've been able, between them, to monopolise the headlines.

Typically... Harmison had a pretty patchy spring in the WI (having entire spells, and the occasional entire day) where he was pretty indifferent.. and an even more patchy spring / summer in England (England won at least 3 of their last 6-7 tests without any special contribution from him)... and yet ended the summer being hailed a god. Now people are surprised that he's barely even patchy in SA.

Equally, in the WI last spring England were heavily dependent on Butcher and Hussain to avoid first innings wipeout.. and throughout the year they were repeatedly in need of typically masteful displays from Thorpe... and had a stack of poor sessions with the bat.. needing to ride their luck at times (and some help from their opponents) to keep coming away with wins.

Strikes me that this SA series is no less encouraging than the WI series last spring: the one wasn't as good as people made out.. and the latter isn't as bad as some are making out: the difference is merely that England got away with things in the WI that they are not getting away with in SA.

Still a better looking outfit than the one that Atherton and Stewart had to lead in their time!

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Strikes me that this SA series is no less encouraging than the WI series last spring: the one wasn't as good as people made out.. and the latter isn't as bad as some are making out: the difference is merely that England got away with things in the WI that they are not getting away with in SA.

Do agree with this.

I do not think we have become in anyway a bad team, we look a slightly off-form team. I still beilive that England will win this series and that the six day break will give us time to refelect and to recover.

People seem to forget that the Saffers (since thay have come back into the fold) have only been beaten once in aseries at home, and that was by Australia. Last time we came here we only one won game (and that was thanks to a certain Mr Cronje and his finacial desire that the game could not be drawn). Did anyone really think they would be rolled over that easily?

I still feel they are a bowler short and have an incredibly weak middle order. Only one Batsman in their team scores runs (Kallis) and if England can get him out then it may open up the opportunity for victory.

Harmison's form is worrying but he will come back, he has the potential due to his natural pace and height, as soon as he gets his length and line back things will happen. It is very unfair to be overly critical - but I suppose it's the England way knock the succesful man when he falls - it is actually one of the only things I hate about being English and makes me angry.

Vaughan will also come back into form - it's just a matter of time.

For me this is the real test of Character, it is ok to be bouyant when your winning, but you learn most about people when they lose, how they react. I feel that this team will react well.

[Ernest]

We are a bowler short as you say ff, and part of that problem is the way England have treated Anderson, on talkSPORT this morning I think it was Atherton who said, he had done hardly any bowling in the last 12 months, well we all know that.

He has a strange action, but was effective, but the England bowling coach, has been tinkering with it, so now Anderson is now not effective, thank god Troy C is leaving.

Like Atherton said, Anderson was Englands professional tea boy.

England will bounce back, at 1/1 all to play for.

[Glamorgan Wanderer]

I'm not sure your comments about Troy Cooley are entirely justified Ern. In any event, I think the problem with Anderson is not the coaching but the fact that he hasn't been allowed to play any cricket all year.

I do not see the point of him carrying the drinks for England when he could be playing for Lancs and getting some confidence back.

[R W S]

Originally Posted by Ernest

.... thank god Troy C is leaving.

That's a bit steep Ern. Troy C has been lauded by all and sundry for his efforts with the England fast bowlers - particuarly in teaching them the dark art of reverse swing. You'll be pleased to know that the Lancs coach is replacing TC for the rest of the tour (he is the one day swuad bowling coach).

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest

He has a strange action, but was effective, but the England bowling coach, has been tinkering with it, so now Anderson is now not effective, thank god Troy C is leaving.

I doubt that's true. People were expecting too much from him. On the basis of a few one day matches they thought he was going to be a world beater over night.

It's not that England have lost today that ****es me off, just the way they lost. Key and Vaughan's dismissals, unforgivable.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Glamorgan Wanderer

I'm not sure your comments about Troy Cooley are entirely justified Ern. In any event, I think the problem with Anderson is not the coaching but the fact that he hasn't been allowed to play any cricket all year.

What I have against Troy C over Anderson GW, is just that he tinkered with Andersons action, that may have been fair enough, had the lad been playing cricket, and you are right, he has only bowled 210 overs for England counting ODIs in 12 months, not good enough is it?.Yes he should be getting some form back at Lanc's
.

Originally Posted by R W S 32159

That's a bit steep Ern. Troy C has been lauded by all and sundry for his efforts with the England fast bowlers - particuarly in teaching them the dark art of reverse swing. You'll be pleased to know that the Lancs coach is replacing TC for the rest of the tour (he is the one day swuad bowling coach).

I am not that big on coaches for pace bowlers RW, I will always remember what Denis Lilee said over Botham, well it was a warning really,"coach Botham, and you will ruin him", I dare put that in quotes, as it sticks in my mind.
Ironic really, the Lanc's coach taking over, because I think Andersons next destination, is Lancashire.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Pete

I doubt that's true. People were expecting too much from him. On the basis of a few one day matches they thought he was going to be a world beater over night.

With respect Pete, if you remember when Simon Jones had that horrible accident when we last played Australia , Anderson was called from the acadomy, and he bowled really well, and was a good wicket taker, why he was dropped, no one knows.
He has played crap in the ODIs, he has played in of late, because he is not match ready.

Originally Posted by Pete

It's not that England have lost today that ****es me off, just the way they lost. Key and Vaughan's dismissals, unforgivable.

True, we have not had the rub of the green, we will be back Pete.

There are some plusses, Flintoff and Simon jones bowling, good stuff.

[R W S]

One of the best things Troy C has done during his tenure is to set up the research centre in Loughborough at the England Cricket academy which specifically looks into how fast bowlers get injured. In recent years England have had to field poor bowling attacks due to the loss of our first choces through injury. He thinks it will take at least ten years for the research to be completed.

It is because of potential injury caused by his action that Jimmy Anderson (coupled with the fact that he looks at the gruond about a yard in front of his left foot when releasing the ball) has had work done on his action. True, that he has not had enough bowling to test the changes but when he was given the chance in threee ODIs in Zimbabwe he returned figures of 27 overs 2 wicket for 113 at more than 4.5 an over.

As to you advancing Lillee as a supporter of not having bowling coaches . . . . well you'll not be surprised to know that the E(&W)CB announced

Originally Posted by E(&W)CB

In the New Year, it is our intention to send two fast bowlers, with Troy Cooley, to the MRF Pace Academy in Chennai to work with Dennis Lillee.

One of the two is your own Sajid Mahmood (Lancashire)!

And you could do worse than take this information on board as well:

When Lillee first arrived in India 17 years ago, the MRF ground was nothing to write home about. But as a favour to his friend, Ravi Mammen, the boss of MRF who died shortly after he was appointed director, Lillee set about developing it from an unused field in the Madras Christian College grounds into a fast bowling school of international repute.

Since then, some of the most outstanding bowlers in the world have passed through, including Glenn McGrath, Brett Lee, Zaheer Khan and most recently Indian youngster Irfan Pathan.

Full article here