Fifth Test, Centurion. South Africa v England Day 1.

[cantplaycantalk]

Gotta say Flintoff may have been off-clour with the bat but his bowling has been the best I have seen it.
Vaughan has been off colour for a long while but seemed to be getting it back in the last test.
Steve Harmison just needs a couple of wickets to his confidence back and the rythm is showing some signs of returning. (his batting has looked ok too ) G Jones has been poor but we have options (not including Read)

We have Bangladesh to get some confidence back at home before the Aussies so I'm not too worried by Steve H's bowling form. I would like to see Bell and Collingwood get a few runs between now and then so that we have some decent backup for form/injury at home but it has been ok.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

• Michael Vaughan, although he made two half centuries has failed in the past.
• Andrew Flintoff went backwards on a great year with both bat and ball.

With one match to play and Vauhnie lookig good in the last test, don't rule out that he may not doing something here.


Flintoff with the bat I agree, but with the ball? Not too sure I can agree with that? He is the second heighest wicket taker for England and has possibly been the most consitent all tour?

[Irish Left Armer]

Flintoff's bowling has been very good, he and Hoggard have carried the attack in every match. His batting has been poor though, playing some very poor shots too. Get him to have his bone spur operation as soon as this test series is over. The ultimate aim has to be for England to put their best side out for the ashes and Freddie is a must.

[Trescothick's Footwork]

Originally Posted by Paoli69

Negatives from this tour:

• Andrew Flintoff went backwards on a great year with both bat and ball.

So you haven't actually been watching very closely then? Freddie has been superb, world class consistent fast seam bowling. He was superb again today, bowling at 92mph at times he produced one devastating spell to claw England back into the game. His bowling has got better yet again in a test series. I'd take Flintoff's bowling any day instead of the "riding on the back of McGrath" Gillespie, thankyou. Why? Because he's the better bowler, and tends to step up when he is actually needed, not mopping up after the main damage has been done.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Trescothick's Footwork

Freddie has been superb, world class consistent fast seam bowling. He was superb again today, bowling at 92mph at times he produced one devastating spell to claw England back into the game. His bowling has got better yet again in a test series.

Um - no. Flintoff's bowling has been erratic throughout the series.. and whilst he's frequently been as promising as anyone on display... I don't think he's had a single spell that's been truly world class. In most spells his line has been wayward... his length has not been that great either.. and he's struggled to get the movement off the seam that his height and pace might lead one to expect.

That's no denying that Flintoff's rivalled Hoggard for effectiveness and eclipsed Harmison / Jones / Anderson... but let's get this in perspective: they haven't been setting the bar too high. Fact is, no-one's bowled respectably for either side.. and Flintoff's no different to the others in having figures that reflect a gross lack of application and shortfall of technique on the part of the batsmen rather than any tremendous feat of building pressure of being unplayable.

Originally Posted by Trescothick's Footwork

I'd take Flintoff's bowling any day instead of the "riding on the back of McGrath" Gillespie, thankyou. Why? Because he's the better bowler, and tends to step up when he is actually needed, not mopping up after the main damage has been done.

Completely the opposite of what was being said on Talksport today when commentators were noting the fact that this side has hardly ever bowled well under pressure (as in this morning's spell, when SA had been put in and the bowlers had been entrusted with a job).

[Ernest]

I have been listening to the same talkSPORT Rachael, and I heard that Flintoff was getting the ball to move of the seam "both ways".

He has lived up to his possition as a bowling all-rounder, he has floundered with the bat this series, but far from being an all-round bowler, he has been one of the most effective bowlers.

Such is Flintoffs worth as a bowler, that he has had to play with his ankle condition, and at the same time, struggling with a side strain.
He should be home resting, would England be winning the series without him?,I doubt it!.

[yubeingfunny]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Um - no. Flintoff's bowling has been erratic throughout the series.. and whilst he's frequently been as promising as anyone on display... I don't think he's had a single spell that's been truly world class. In most spells his line has been wayward... his length has not been that great either.. and he's struggled to get the movement off the seam that his height and pace might lead one to expect.

Completely the opposite of what was being said on Talksport today when commentators were noting the fact that this side has hardly ever bowled well under pressure (as in this morning's spell, when SA had been put in and the bowlers had been entrusted with a job).

The man can clearly not please you!!!

Erratic??? Pardon??? Compared to Glenn McGrath maybe, but considering you rate Pollock as being almost up there with McGrath, Flintoff has been on a level with Pollock in terms of consistency.

He's struggled to get movement?? I don't seem to remember anyone (especially Pollock) moving it on right angles? Flintoff has induced a couple of drag-ons this series with batsmen playing outside the line and being fooled by the movement, it may not be dramatic but it's effective.

And on top of that he has even managed one or two that have moved away - which you've always criticised him for not being able to bowl, surely thats improvement?

His dismissal of Kallis was superb, to york the worlds best batsman in top form... must be doing something right (oh sorry thats right - bowlers can never "get batsmen out" - Kallis must have been asleep or something?)

As for England noy performing when the pressure is on... surely after performing poorly in the first two sessions (on a supposed bowler's track) the pressure was at its highest in the evening session - and look what happened there?

I suppose you will state this as yet another example of England being c*** and just being lucky to win a vital session??

All i can say is that its got to get to the point where you have to see that it must be down to something more than luck?

True enough England havent performed 100% but not even the Aussie's do... the trick is winning tests when you havent played your best

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by yubeingfunny

The man can clearly not please you!!!

Not at all: I'm delighted with both the workload Flintoff has shouldered and the standard of bowling he's sustained: both far superior to anything anyone might have predicted with confidence.. and surely both superior to anything that can be matched by any other top 6 batsmen in world cricket and a godsend to Vaughan.

Alas, that was not what I was disputing... merely the overblown assessment that "Freddie has been superb [ delivering] world class consistent fast seam bowling".. a statement that goes well BEYOND the above.. and rather ignores the fact that Flintoff's at best been solid rather than spectacular this series.. and has revealed (in his waywardness when expected to make breakthroughs) his limitations and inexperience as a strike bowler.

The point being made on Talksport applies as much to Flintoff as to the others.. and was that all of the English bowlers have actualy been doing their best when the big moment has passed, attack is forgotten about, they focus on a patience game and when they have just relaxed and settled into building pressure by just putting the ball in the right areas (something the WI and NZ imploded against and which, in this series, SA are handling disgracefully).

Conversely... with Flintoff just as much as with Hoggard, Harmison and Giles... when they try to GET batsmen out.. when they look for the unplayable delivery... or to out-wit a batsman... they just let all the pressure off and haemorage runs.

Bit worrying, that... but it's not Flintoff's problem: it's the specialist seamer's job to step up to THAT plate.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by yubeingfunny

The man can clearly not please you!!!

Erratic??? Pardon??? Compared to Glenn McGrath maybe, but considering you rate Pollock as being almost up there with McGrath, Flintoff has been on a level with Pollock in terms of consistency.

He's struggled to get movement?? I don't seem to remember anyone (especially Pollock) moving it on right angles? Flintoff has induced a couple of drag-ons this series with batsmen playing outside the line and being fooled by the movement, it may not be dramatic but it's effective.

With respect YBF, this must be music to Rachaels ears, now I listen to the same talkSPORT as Rachael, the same match, so she must have heard it mentioned that Flintoff was getting latereal movement.
The fact is he being injured and all, has competed with Pollock, and bowled better that Kallis.
So when he is fit YBF, you can compare Flintoff with McGrath, he and Hoggard have carried this team.in the bowling dept.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Conversely... with Flintoff just as much as with Hoggard, Harmison and Giles... when they try to GET batsmen out.. when they look for the unplayable delivery... or to out-wit a batsman... they just let all the pressure off and haemorage runs.

Bit worrying, that... but it's not Flintoff's problem: it's the specialist seamer's job to step up to THAT plate.

Very clever Rachael, what a patronising way you have, of saying that Flintoff is not a front line seamer, but this time Rachael the evidence says different, he does not get his wicket cheap getting at the tail enders, look who he bowled out on Saterday, Kallis for one, and that other great all-rounder Pollock.

[Beny]

Ohhh...

Originally Posted by Tresco's footwork

So you haven't actually been watching very closely then? Freddie has been superb, world class consistent fast seam bowling. He was superb again today, bowling at 92mph at times he produced one devastating spell to claw England back into the game. His bowling has got better yet again in a test series. I'd take Flintoff's bowling any day instead of the "riding on the back of McGrath" Gillespie, thankyou. Why? Because he's the better bowler, and tends to step up when he is actually needed, not mopping up after the main damage has been done.

Don't get me started boy... You're dam lucky you're on the English Fourm...

Originally Posted by Tresco's footwork

Because he's the better bowler

From what I've see this test so far... It's been the fielding thats let you down. Those catches off Harmison should have been swallowed but not only did they go down, so did Harmy's confidence.

Flintoff is not a world class seamer. He is an allrounder and If England choose to make him bowl 30 overs in a day because he is the only one bowling half decently then not only will his batting suffer but so will his fitness. (well actualy he'll probebly get fitter but tear a few muscles at the same time.)

I thought Jones bowled well but I'd love to see him get his length about 5-10cm furthur up.

Hoggard bowled well (as you would expect in these conditions).