Vaughan and ODI's

[Goatman]

I am probably the most dedicated supporter of MPV on this site. I honestly believe he is the best test bat ENG have got. now the team has its own momentum - and he can focus once again on his own game - expect him to come back and make his critics eat thier ill chosen words. However, his batting in one day matches is a different kettle of fish. The ENG management clearly see a lot in him; why esle would they make him ODI captain when Hussain stepped down from that role? But I'm a Yorkshire man, I have followed MPV's career since well before he debuted in tests. And frankly I have often wondered whether, if he was selcted on performance rather than appearance, MPV would even make Yorkshires one day side, never mind Englands. He opens for us (usually), and yet only averages 28! Which is, well, not that good is it.....

So, over the weekend I put my mind to whether Vaughan could justify his ODI selection by adopting a wider role in the team. ENG nearly won the ICCCCCC...CCCT, but where done at the last when they failed to kill off an amazingly long WI batting lineup. These long, long batting lineups are becoming very common - WI, SA, IND, PAK, SL and NZ all field teams that bat to 9 or even 10. They do this by using players who are selected for their batting to use up 10 of the overs when they field. Most of these part-timers are spinners; Sehwag, Lehmann, Symonds, Gayle and Jayasuriya are good examples. I also see several spinners who are integral parts of thier countries ODI teams dispite neither being (seemingly...) of the required class in either discipline; Afridi and Boje for example. Please don't get stuck into whether or not any or all of these are class in any or all of the cricket disciplines; if you believe that these lads are, for example, class bowlers, all that does is strengthen any argument that Vaughan's bowling may be an option for ENG.

So I have made a compilation of these guys career bowling stats, and Vaughans. I will make no big case here. However, I think it is fair to say that there is no huge and consistent gap between the past performances of these blokes who are trusted to bowl several overs in every ODI match thier teams play and MPV. I direct you particulalrly to the domestic one day numbers at the bottom; MPV frequently bowls for Yorkshire and has so bowled sufficient overs for comparison to be fair. Unlike many of the other (eg. Sehwag, Jayasuriya and Afridi) who frequently bowlon helpful surfaces, MPV virtually never does in domestic cricket. Indeed, his home ground is Headingley, famously one of the least spin-firendly surfaces in world cricket. Anyway, enjoy!

Order; 1) Vaughan in black; 2) Sehwag; 3) Lehmann; 4) Symonds; 5) Boje; 6) Gayle; 7) Afridi; 8) Jayasuriya.

Tests
Mat O R W BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
55 151 516 6 2/71 2/71 86.00 3.41 151.0 0 0
31 88.3 334 3 1/17 1/17 111.33 3.77 177.0 0 0
27 162.2 412 15 3/42 6/92 27.46 2.53 64.9 0 0
2 24 85 1 1/68 1/68 85.00 3.54 144.0 0 0
29 963.4 2737 78 5/62 8/134 35.08 2.84 74.1 3 0
47 372.5 944 23 5/34 5/34 41.04 2.53 97.2 1 0
15 250.5 776 21 5/52 5/90 36.95 3.09 71.6 1 0
94 1177.5 2872 89 5/34 9/74 32.26 2.43 79.4 2 0

ODI’s
Mat O R W BB1 BB2 Ave Econ SR 4w 5w
61 89.4 449 11 4/22 2/37 40.81 5.00 48.9 1 0
107 396.3 2087 51 3/25 3/28 40.92 5.26 46.6 0 0
115 288.4 1382 52 4/7 3/16 26.57 4.78 33.3 1 0
110 612.1 3011 80 4/11 4/35 37.63 4.91 45.9 2 0
103 663.3 3032 85 5/21 4/25 35.67 4.56 46.8 2 1
111 605.3 2801 95 5/46 4/19 29.48 4.62 38.2 3 1
196 1262.2 5810 157 5/11 5/40 37.00 4.60 48.2 1 2
334 2033.4 9699 267 6/29 5/17 36.32 4.76 45.7 6 4

Domestic
O M R W Ave BBI 4w 5w SR Econ
478.3 16 2191 70 31.30 4-22 4 0 41.0 4.57
600.5 18 3065 84 36.48 4-17 1 0 42.9 5.10
830 15 3785 151 25.06 4-7 2 0 32.9 4.56
1394.5 56 6504 210 30.97 6-14 2 3 39.8 4.66
1541.4 89 6563 201 32.65 5-21 8 1 46.0 4.25
882.3 42 3804 140 27.17 5-46 4 1 37.8 4.31
1796 69 8225 235 35.00 5-11 2 3 45.8 4.57
2299.4 42 10965 319 34.37 6-29 9 5 44.0 4.73

[Lee Johnson]

Interesting Stats, most people are of the belief that MPV should bowl a lot more than he does in international cricket. Is his reluctance down to his knee injury maybe?

I dont think that Vaughn need worry about his one day record as to me he seems to be improving all the time. He scored a great 80 against the Aussies, looked good(i know its not difficult) against the Zimbo's and looked a class apart on Sunday. I think he's finally got his head around the shorter format. If he were to be able to bowl 5-7 overs a game aswell he'd help with the balence that we always seem to be searching for.

[Goatman]

Sorry about that - after a prolonged fight, its still a mess.


For those that can't be **** to plod through it, I have posted the averages again below. Order is the same.

Tests

86

111

27.5

85

35

41

37

32



ODI’s

41

41

27

38

36

29

37

36



Domestic

31

36

25

31

33

27

35

34

[Seamer]

Originally Posted by Goatman

And frankly I have often wondered whether, if he was selcted on performance rather than appearance, MPV would even make Yorkshires one day side, never mind Englands. He opens for us (usually), and yet only averages 28! Which is, well, not that good is it.....

I have not seen enough of his bowling to be sure but from what i have seen ,Vaughan is a"on his day" bowler. Could do O.K, could get smashed. To be honest, the current English attack should have no real need to bowl him unless the wicket favours spin, in which case, there is a good chance it could be "his day" So i think there is a role for him as a back up for Giles but only when needed.
His batting mystifies me. I have not seen too much of him, but from what i have seen, he changes the way he bats for ODI,s - looks like he is premeditating his shots and not just letting it come naturally. The recent game in the ICC comp when Eng knocked out Aus though, he seemed to be more relaxed and let it come naturally and produced a masterful display - free flowing cover drives, powerful cut shots - basically the way he plays in tests.
He has the goods for ODI,s , he just needs to go out and pretend he is playing in a test and let it come naturally. Perhaps he should open.As for his bowling - well - unless the wicket is favoring spin - he should let his mainliners do the job and just let his bat do the talking
Just a neutral (and possibly ill-informed) opinion from a humble Aussie that has a huge respect for Vaughan batting skills

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Seamer

Just a neutral (and possibly ill-informed) opinion from a humble Aussie that has a huge respect for Vaughan batting skills

Yeah - I don't know why he keeps fluffing it. But even I can't pretend that he does much too often.....

Really, what I am pushing towards is that ENG, like AUS, feel the need to play 3 specialist seamers more often than not. This is much more of a problem for ENG however, as our middle order is a little one dimensional - basically its Fred + the younguns. For this reason, it is abundantly clear that Big Dunc and MPV feel they need one of those seamers to be able to swing the bat - why else Wharf? Why else are they pressing SP Jones's one day claims (the lad struggles to get a one day game for Glamorgan!). If they could bank on 5-7 overs from MPV, there are others who can make up the overs when it isn't his day.

The standard ENG ODI attack (ignoring the current series...) is Gough + Fred + Giles + 2 other seamers. Collingwood only ever takes up slack - though he does so with enough skill that the ENG management feel they can bank on him to send down 10 in SA now that Fred is absent. In essence, what I am saying is; can we put our faith in Colly and MPV to put down 10 overs together whatever the conditions? We also have Tres, Bell (RM) and Pietersen (OS) in the side who all bowl a bit for thier counties. So there would still be some backup even then.......

To an extent, I am searching for a justification for MPV's retention in the side when he is not making runs.

[Lee Johnson]

Vaughans current one day form is not that bad his last 10 scores are 74,17,5,86,7,56,11,54*,90* and 44* and his opposition in that time has been Ind, Sri, WI, Aus, Zim and SA, not too bad for someone who cant play one day cricket.

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Lee Johnson

Vaughans current one day form is not that bad his last 10 scores are 74,17,5,86,7,56,11,54*,90* and 44* and his opposition in that time has been Ind, Sri, WI, Aus, Zim and SA, not too bad for someone who cant play one day cricket.

I think Vaughans great. But he's not exactly set the world alight with his one day batting - as yet.

I reckon there's more we can get out of him, and thus, the team by looking at his dinky offspinners. It would be lovely to see him making serious runs over the next year or two. But how much more lovely would it be to see him taking wickets as well!

[Lee Johnson]

Same could be said about Tresco, Bell, KP and even Solanki when there in the team. Theres a lot of potential Batsmen who can chip in with overs if they're willing to work on there bowling. Look at cronje, he started off as someone who'd have the odd ball in the nets and he worked hard at his game andbecame a quite handy seamer.

[Goatman]

Originally Posted by Lee Johnson

Tresco, Bell, KP and even Solanki

Bell needs the opportunity to focus on batting, as does KP. Not a great idea to clutter them with having to bowl too. At least, not yet.

Tresco is an appropriate comparison, but I don't think he'll bowl 10 overs very often. Its probably worth noting that virtually all of the guys I'm looking at emulating are spinners. The fact that they take the pace off the ball means that you have to HIT the ball to score runs, meaning in turn that in the middle overs of the match to score at a pace against them involves risk taking. At the very least you have to risk the sweep. Thats not so true of a medium pacer you can run around for 1's and 2's. That makes Solanki an option, but we need be be wary of falling into the bitsa trap here........

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Solanki is unlikely to play for england again if we win this series convincingly. Yes he's a joy to watch against county bowlers, arguably there nto watch but I dont think he can hack it againt the big boys, and its not strauss and tresco are slow scorers. Shame.