Two spinners in the England team

[Chuck Palumbo]

Would the current England side under any circumstances pick two spinners in their side?

I'm not sure if it would be worthwile. Unless there is a spinner that is able to do much better than one of our pace bowlers, then I don't think we should consider it.
Some people may want to see two spinners in the subcontinent next winter but going through the list of candidates, I can't see anyone in county cricket being worthy of a place in the test side. Keedy is good but the balance of the team would be hurt if we played two left arm spinners with him and Giles. Swann, Batty and Dawson are all not good enough spinners at test level in my view.

In recent years on tours to the subcontinent, the 2nd spinner after Giles in the line up has been rendered worthless. In the Pakistan tour in 2000, Sailsbury took just 1 wicket at a whopping 193.
Then on the tour to India a year later it was Richard Dawson who took a mediocre 6 wickets at 46.50.
More recently it was Gareth Batty who took up the 2nd spinners duty in SL during 2003 and yet again the return was poor, 6 wickets at 66.

So until we find a good enough spinner that can take wickets at international level, I personally I find playing a second spinner after Giles quite frankly worthless.

[Rachael]

Hmmm. In an ideal world I guess the side should just field it's 4 best bowlers.. all of whom would be of a quality that it didn't matter whether they were fast / medium / slow, seam / swing, etc. Think if you could get the following together:Bedser, Underwood, Laker - right now I'd take all three!

Thing is.. England are only in that boat if they can be sure that (say) Harmison, Hoggard, Giles and Flintoff are good enough to cope unaided.

Fat chance. - but who do you add to that crew then.. and for where?

Hussain always said the England side was competitive on a results pitch but struggled the moment they hit a flat pitch... so Simon Jones is regarded as a saviour: the man to find reverse swing from no-where when everyone else is out of ideas. Thing is.. every pitch with an abrasive enough outfield to suggest he's going to be dangerous is also likely to be one on which someone like Keedy would be dangerous - so they are head to head and Jones is currently going to keep the latter out.

For the other pitches I guess the plan was Anderson... but in truth neither Jones NOR Keedy (nor any similar bowler) is likely to be much help in Anderson's place: for Edgebaston or Trent Bridge you want a Bicknell or a Saggers.

Might all change for a very dry and dusty subcontinental turner where the opposition were only fielding one seamer: I supose England might put out Flintoff, Giles, Jones and Keedy for that (with / without Harmison). Would have to be someone like Keedy, though: I don't see much mileage in both Giles and Batty playing in the same side - they are alternatives, not a pairing!

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Well as far as the india/pakistan tour is concerned you might as well pick another spinner because freddie and jones could do a job, as could hoggy (new ball only i fancy) but you migh as well turn out with 10 men instead of taking harmo who wont like it one bit AND conditions wont suit. Swann for me as he can bat a bit, althouh by then you could have two part time offies in the form of vaughan and pietersen (thorpe surely wont tour), but IF (we're in the big IFs again !) a decent leggie can be found, on dry tracks you could get away with jones and freddie in the seam dept. How would colly fair out there ??

[Chuck Palumbo]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

but you migh as well turn out with 10 men instead of taking harmo who wont like it one bit AND conditions wont suit. Swann for me as he can bat a bit, althouh by then you could have two part time offies in the form of vaughan and pietersen (thorpe surely wont tour), but IF (we're in the big IFs again !) a decent leggie can be found, on dry tracks you could get away with jones and freddie in the seam dept. How would colly fair out there ??

If Harmison can sort his head out, I reckon he could be a potential weapon on the subcontinent pitches. He has the height and the pace to get bounce out of any pitch in the world so he would be a handful for batsman used to the ball coming at shin high. I remember a spell on a dead as a doodle Dhaka pitch against Bangladesh where he was getting extreme bounce to which no one even got close to getting and he ended up getting 9 wickets in the match...true it might have only been Bangladesh but it was impressive none the less.

But if he is homesick in South Africa, what is he going to be like in Pakistan and India? I fear you may be right, it could be like playing with 10 men.

Back on the second spinner issue.. a second spinner for the subcontinent tour next year would be potentially cannon fodder for the likes of Inzy, Youhana, Tendulkar, Laxman who love the slow stuff...particularly the Indian batsman who have had no problems with dealing with the greatest spinner of our generation Shane Warne so imagine how they are going to treat a Graeme Swann or Gareth Batty?

[Andy Mellon]

I think we should also consider all the available candidates. These are:

Giles, Swann, Batty, Dawson and Keedy as the recognised candidates

Other people who would generally not be considered are: Middlebrook, Brown, Schofield (ha ha), Croft (retired from tests), Dumelow, Paget, Patel(retired from tests), Udal(retired from tests)

Really, who out of any of these players is a test class spinner. Giles wouldn't get into the side on bowling ability alone, though with his batting ability he gets in. Swann and Batty are similar, but in my opinion not as consistant or as popular as Gilo. Dawson has looked out of his depth in international cricket so far, and Keedy has not been selected even as the clear best spinner because he doesn't offer anything else (in Gatt speak, "What does Keedy bring to the table except wickets?")

Of the others, these players would not get into a subcontinental regional side on their spinning ability alone. Paget is young and up and coming, and there's also that guy at Yorkshire (Lawson?) who may be the future of England spinning.

Actually, looking at it from this perspective makes you realise how crap the depth in English spinning is. It makes me yearn for the days of Peter Such!

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Originally Posted by Andy Mellon

Actually, looking at it from this perspective makes you realise how crap the depth in English spinning is. It makes me yearn for the days of Peter Such!

No it doesnt !!!!!!

[Milo]

Given England's personnel, I would really prefer to see them NEVER select two spinners. We do not have the talented players to actually take wickets on pitches that would not offer them little assistance. In addition, if we got a pitch like the one India played Australia on, Michael Vaughan could quite happily fill up his boots as the second spinner (just like Michael Clarke did)

The bowling unit Hoggard, Harmison, Jones, Giles and Flintoff should really look to play every game in which they are available If Jones is out of favour then Anderson, Saggers, Ali or whoever should be selected. But not a spinner. They are just not good enough.

[Milo]

Originally Posted by Andy Mellon

Actually, looking at it from this perspective makes you realise how crap the depth in English spinning is. It makes me yearn for the days of Peter Such!

Don't forget John Childs, Andy.

[Andy Mellon]

Originally Posted by Milo

Don't forget John Childs, Andy.

Or Don Topley!! (sigh) Oh, those were the days!

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Andy Mellon

and Keedy has not been selected even as the clear best spinner because he doesn't offer anything else (in Gatt speak, "What does Keedy bring to the table except wickets?")

How good are we talking here? Obviously he's no Murali or Warne, but everyone says he's better than Giles. So does this mean everyone thinks he's comparable to Harbhajan or Kumble, who aren't as good as Warne or Murali, but alot better than other spinners?