Australian Spin Doctors..>Stop Press Ian Healy Is The Latest..>

[Ernest]

Yu Know Australia must be real worried about this England tour they have to face, Ian Healy is the latest Aussie spin merchant to write of England chances, 5-0 he predicts, or rain interfearing, England won't win a Test.

Originally Posted by Ian Healy

Ian Healy, the former Australian wicketkeeper, has written off England for the forthcoming Ashes series and believes that they won't win a single Test.

Story below.

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/CR...16APR2005.html

A lot of doubters over England, but it is sooo different to when the teams last met, Vaughan is captain, players are different, really these two teams as they stand today are strangers, so why do England keep being wrote off.

England have as good an attack that Australia, maybe better, and certainly younger, faster and just as accurate.
Batting, we keep hearing all the spin about these mighty Aussies, anyone would think England have no players, Strauss up and coming, young and hungry, Trescothick on his day will rip any attack appart, Thorpe get him out when you can, Flintoff will just love the Australian medium pacers, I can see a lot of boundries from Flintoff and Trescothick, holding with Strauss and Thorpe, and vaughan saves his best form for against Australia.
Going to be enough egg on peoples faces like Thommo and Healy, to make gallons of custard.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Batting, we keep hearing all the spin about these mighty Aussies, anyone would think England have no players.

I don't think anyone's disputing that England have some depth to their batting, Ernest... or even that this current England crew are a match for many that have gone before them.... but that's like saying an England football side built around Carragher and Southgate in defence, Nicky butt and Phil Neville in the middle of the park and Alan Smith up front is a pretty damn respectable core - it's true enough.. but the fact that all those players could hold their head up in fine company doesn't hide the fact that you'd not back that lot against Ferdinand, Terry, Lampard, Gerrard and Owen.

It's not that any of the England cricketers are anything other than fine players.. it's just that they are all (with the possible exception of Vaughan) pretty much 'B' list players: I love the way Strauss and Thorpe play.. and admire both hugely.. as I do Bell. I would still rather have Langer, Ponting, Martyn or Katich batting for me!

Youroptimism stems from an unreasonable confidence that each and every player in the England line up will play the best they have ever played.. despite facing the toughest bowling they have ever played! Sure, Strauss, Tresco, Vaughan and Thorpe have shown they can deliver decent performances.. but so have (changing sports) Gareth Southgate, Jamie Carragher, Nicky Butt and Phil Neville - but the odds on all four excelling themselves just ain't that good.

Miracles happen.. but that's what you are faced with here: a very slim chance that a flukey run of form will allow England to salvage some pride.

[cantplaycantalk]

I just hope the Aussies start believing their own "spin", this England team can push the Aussies close, and if they are just a little complacent then they could turn them over.

The Indians turned the Aussies over and the Indians don't have a bowling attack anywhere near the English quality.

Also the NZ attack has had the Aussies rocking on a couple of occassions and just lacked the punch to make the last breakthrough. That same NZ attack didn't compare very favourably to the English bowlers last summer either.

Don't get me wrong I think the Aussies have the edge, but it is a narrow gap and getting narrower. In my oppinion the Aussies have had the good fortune not to have any really strong and well balanced opposition over the last few years.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

I don't think anyone's disputing that England have some depth to their batting, Ernest... or even that this current England crew are a match for many that have gone before them

I am being more reflective here in this thread, I am leaving it to the Australians to come out with their over confident clap trap(eg.Healy Thommo).
I would like to think that England will play as a unit, because they are used to winning as a unit, so are Australia, but they have beaten no better sides than England.
Taking your football analogy a bit further down the pitch, I am looking, and hoping this England cricket team of 2005, will play like the England Soccer world Cup winning side of 1966.
The England side in 1966 had no great stars like Pele, but they played method as a team, a team that new each other, and used to winning.
I liken Dunkan Fletcher to Sir Alf Ramsey, quiet composed, and quietly confident.
Reasons, this England cricket team have won quite a few Test matches together, they have dug holes for themselves, but one or more of the players have seen England through, Flintoff/Jones-Flintoff/Thorpe-Flintoff/Strauss-Strauss Trescothick.
And after Vaughan-Trescothick-Strauss-Thorpe-key/Butcher-Flintoff, then Australia will have to get through Jones-Giles,before they get to the tail proper.
I know Australia have the same, but they keep heaping pressure on their players, only Ponting seems to have a cool head.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Your optimism stems from an unreasonable confidence that each and every player in the England line up will play the best they have ever played.. despite facing the toughest bowling they have ever played!

No I disagree here, I am quietly confident we will do well, because we have a team of players, not just a few stars, very few weak links in that England side, and i say this Rachael, england played Pollock with ease, and managed to beat South Africa with a much improved Ntini.
Your arguments Rachael are baced on the belief that McGrath is still a great force, well he may be very good, but I am not sure about Australas other bowlers, not that young either.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Miracles happen.. but that's what you are faced with here: a very slim chance that a flukey run of form will allow England to salvage some pride.

I doubt you are right Rachael, I am banking on Flintoff playing to his form, and Harmison recapturing his, you don't win a series against Australia with flukes Rachael, the better team will win, and I think England have a reasonable chance.

Originally Posted by cantplaycantalk 44728

I just hope the Aussies start believing their own "spin" and if they are just a little complacent then they could turn them over.

This is what the thread is about, they are so hyped up, they could come down with a crash.

Originally Posted by cantplaycantalk

In my oppinion the Aussies have had the good fortune not to have any really strong and well balanced opposition over the last few years.

Yes I agree, and when they play a team who will resist them, that will test their metal, because they will get tested.

[acker]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Youroptimism stems from an unreasonable confidence that each and every player in the England line up will play the best they have ever played.. despite facing the toughest bowling they have ever played! Sure, Strauss, Tresco, Vaughan and Thorpe have shown they can deliver decent performances.. but so have (changing sports) Gareth Southgate, Jamie Carragher, Nicky Butt and Phil Neville - but the odds on all four excelling themselves just ain't that good.

Miracles happen.. but that's what you are faced with here: a very slim chance that a flukey run of form will allow England to salvage some pride.

So true Rachael, the superior Australian batting averages of Ponting, Gilchrist, Martyn, Clarke, Langer, and even our current problem child Hayden are the cold hard facts and figures of their superiority over the English batsmen.

"Miracles" ... well I was not expecting the English team supporter network to start showing signs of cracking at the seams this far out from the start of the ashes series.

I'm starting to think that the English supporters have talked themselves up into such a pre-ashes frenzy that they have peaked (way to early) and now signs of depression and a bit of truth are leaking out in their ramblings.

God save Princess Camilla

[Beny]

Originally Posted by Ernest 44726

Yu Know Australia must be real worried about this England tour they have to face, Ian Healy is the latest Aussie spin merchant to write of England chances, 5-0 he predicts, or rain interfearing, England won't win a Test.
Story below.

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/CR...16APR2005.html

A lot of doubters over England, but it is sooo different to when the teams last met, Vaughan is captain, players are different, really these two teams as they stand today are strangers, so why do England keep being wrote off.

England have as good an attack that Australia, maybe better, and certainly younger, faster and just as accurate.
Batting, we keep hearing all the spin about these mighty Aussies, anyone would think England have no players, Strauss up and coming, young and hungry, Trescothick on his day will rip any attack appart, Thorpe get him out when you can, Flintoff will just love the Australian medium pacers, I can see a lot of boundries from Flintoff and Trescothick, holding with Strauss and Thorpe, and vaughan saves his best form for against Australia.
Going to be enough egg on peoples faces like Thommo and Healy, to make gallons of custard.

Please excuse Ern, He forgot to take his pills today.

[Ernest]

LOL Beny,

Yu forgot the title of the thread Beny, Healy will be back keeping for Australia, don't need gloves just his gob .

[Leafy Seadragon]

Ern, serious question (not even a masked wind-up), what's the difference between what Healy et al are saying regarding England and the comments from yourselves and others that the Ashes will be tight or even England have the edge?

There's been similar stuff over the past decade or so every Ashes. I've been in England for half of them, so I'm aware of the press build-up. Each time its the new wunderkind (this time read Pietersen, previously read Hicks et al), the revitalised fresh young team under new management/captain, or the battle-hardened tough fighters. Each time the result has been the same - Australia wins early & loses the last test to give the English hope that the next time things will be different. This time there is a little more substance to some of the English media hype, but still many questions (Harmison's mental fragility, Freddie's injury, numerous recent batting collapses for example).

Against a backdrop where the Aussies keep on winning. All players have stood up to win tests over the last year or so (even Kaspa), so there's a team of eleven match-winners (not potential match-winners) and they've done so relentlessly in numerous tight situations. With a few rare exceptions, the only tests they have lost were dead rubbers - one 'live' match in the last four years.

So what makes Healy's statement "I can't see them beating this Australian team in a game" 'spin', yet statements that England are close and possibly even ahead are not? The bookies (Bet365) have the odds of Aussies winning comfortably and England not winning a match (Aussies 5-0, 4-0 or 3-0), consistent with Healy's prediciton, about 3.5 to 1. Compared with similar odds of England actually winning and Australia odds-on to win by at least two matches, where's the hype or 'spin'?

[Ernest]

There is a lot of difference between what Ian Healy and Thommo are saying, amounsgst others, icluding a large proportion of English people, and what I am. and other like minded people are saying.
For a start they are saying England will get thrashed, and in truth they have not a clue, Australia have kept on winning, but of late the opposistion has been no better than England have faced,
Not many are taking into account with changes made, these two teams hardly know each other.
Different captains, Strauss is new, Flintoff is new, Simon Jones is new, GO Jones is new, and maybe Bell or Pietersen.

Austraia have made a change or two, so how can Ian Healy-Thommo-and others, includind England so called supporters claim that England are going to get a 5-0 drubbing, when in the fact like I say the sides are so different since the last time England and Australia played each other, like I say even the leaderships are different.
Most of the wild hype is coming from Australia, and like minded English (we can be a pessimistic nation), not from the English, there are a few like me, who give England a chance, for the reasons above, but you don't see wild predictions that England will win 5-0 that often, at least on this board.
As for the bookies, they go on PAST form.

[Leafy Seadragon]

There is a lot of difference between what Ian Healy and Thommo are saying, amounsgst others, icluding a large proportion of English people, and what I am. and other like minded people are saying.
For a start they are saying England will get thrashed

Ern, for a start, Healy is giving a professional opinion, something neither you or I (an assumption I admit) are qualified to give. He stated that he "can't see [England] beating this Australian team in a game". That's hardly claiming England will get a 5-0 drubbing. Stating a team won't lose is very different from stating that they will win every match. Australia could win a tightly fought series 2-0. Healy's call would still be bang on the money. In australia's case, they have lost one 'live' test in four years. That basis alone is reasonable to suggest Healy's comments weren't rash

in truth they have not a clue

No more than any of us, but that's how this future thing works - unless the psychics really are on to something

Australia have kept on winning, but of late the opposistion has been no better than England have faced

Depends what you regard as 'of late'. This Australian team (with the core relatively unchanged) has played and beaten everybody over the last few years. England had a very good 2004 and a good result in SA.

Not many are taking into account with changes made, these two teams hardly know each other.
Different captains, Strauss is new, Flintoff is new, Simon Jones is new, GO Jones is new, and maybe Bell or Pietersen.

Possibly seven or eight out of 22 may not have played against each other. So the majority of the English side is known at least to some degree, married in with some county experience. Of those named, I thought Simon Jones played (albeit briefly) in one test in Oz (not sure about that) and tests and Pietersen are still completely unaquainted. I'm not laying awake at night worrying about GO Jones, Bell & Pietersen just yet (I know - give me time)

like I say even the leaderships are different

This is one area where England have definitely gained ground - the swap of Waugh for Punter hasn't improved Oz's leadership

As for the bookies, they go on PAST form.

Actually the bookies are generally the one group that doesn't go on past form. They balance out the odds on what has been bet to reflect the market. As for the rest of us, past form is all we have (ie. what the player's have done in the past is an indication of their potential, future capacity and results) - unless you've got an inside running from 'Mystic Meg'