England v Bangladesh - Pre Series Thread

[Victor Frankenstein]

as an aside, the groundsmen at the rosebowl must be godlike. I work just down the road and it was absolutely ****ing it down till about 12.30 and even then it was still drizzling in the wind and didn't stop till about 2ish, I didn't even check the bbc site yesterday as i just assumed there would be no chance of play all day, so well done them!

[Rachael]

Where can you look up past 1st class averages these days? It used to be possible from the player page on cricinfo but that seems to have gone now.

Anyway... my recollection is that prior to his injury affeced season Paul Collingwood had just ended a season in which he averageed 50+ with the bat: pretty impressive. Compare that with the sort of performances Tresco was picked on and draw some conclusions from that. To my mind he's a decent enough quality batsman to have deserved a rather better run at Test cricket than he's had: I'd certainly back him over Key.

Counting Collingwood as an "all-rounder" is a bit rich: he's clearly been working on a bit of bowling and with some success.. but he's never pretended to be anything other than a batsman who bowls a bit.

In terms of all-rounders since Botham.. Giles is certainly worth a mention (and is as good a no 7 bat as many others who've been tried).. but the obvious injury-foreshortened success to pick out would be Craig White: in 2000/01 he was bowling at a level that would get him a central contract these days.. and he's a decent batsman... and his fielding was pretty top notch as well.

[Essex Eagle]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Where can you look up past 1st class averages these days? It used to be possible from the player page on cricinfo but that seems to have gone now.

You still can!

Anyway... my recollection is that prior to his injury affeced season Paul Collingwood had just ended a season in which he averageed 50+ with the bat: pretty impressive.

A career FC average of 31 doesnt warrant a test place for my money

In terms of all-rounders since Botham.. Giles is certainly worth a mention

With 2 50's from 45 odd tests?

but the obvious injury-foreshortened success to pick out would be Craig White: in 2000/01 he was bowling at a level that would get him a central contract these days.. and he's a decent batsman... and his fielding was pretty top notch as well.

Good shout - for about 15 months when he was bowling very sharp swingers he was a good asset to the team - forgot all about him!

[Rachael]

Hmmm.. I can see the career stats there.. but before the recent change in appearance there was a link to year-by-year 1st class stats: that appears to have gone.

For what it's worth, Tresco's overall 1st class average is just 35.05, Michael Vaughan's is just 38.38 and Flintoff's is just 35.83: none strike me as particularly impressive.. and none of those three have a major injury-related blip forcing their averages down: Collingwood may not be up their with Ramps and Hick as a count player.. but he's at least as promising with the bat as Tresco ever was (and would get Tresco's place if I had any say in the matter).

As for Ashley Giles... he's a respectable no 7 bat... as opposed to Flintoff who's a fine no 7 bat.. but potentialy a better bowler: if Flintoff were forced to retire from the game he'd be perfectly adequate in that role.

[cantplaycantalk]

Funny thing is some of the best England players of recent haven't been the ones who set the county championship alight.

Vaughan and Strauss as opposed to Ed Smith and Mark Ramprakash

Also it does depend on the wicket you are playing on, a lot easier to average high if your home wicket is a flat batting paradise, you play 50% of your innings on a batsman friendly surface.

Collingwood plays on the riverside mostly you are looking at 250ish for an inning total, and over the last few years has played in a very weak side where the only thing he could depend on was that the rest of the team would collapse. When he played over in Aus he topped the averages. Collingwood's bowling has improved enough over the last 12 months that he is now being used as the 4th seamer by Durham. Check this years bowling averages.

Saying all that I feel that the next real English all rounder is most likely Tim Bresnan , Liam Plunkett or another of the same generation.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

As for Ashley Giles... he's a respectable no 7 bat... as opposed to Flintoff who's a fine no 7 bat.. but potentialy a better bowler: if Flintoff were forced to retire from the game he'd be perfectly adequate in that role.

Why do you always associate Flintoff with being a no 7 bat?.

He is a no 6, and you must know he is a no 6, (well the selectors do), he has been a number 7, and it did not work, he was wasted at 7.
So I ask you this, bearing in mind that last year Flintoff was Englands best batsman, and that counting Vaughan-Thorpe et al.
So who is going to fill his boots at 6?, where Flintoff can rip any attack appart, including the Aussies, and why would you want to make such a move?.

Originally Posted by Rachael

if Flintoff were forced to retire from the game he'd be perfectly adequate in that role.

On what grounds, no one in England could fill Flintoffs boots, we would loose the Ashes series for sure, came to think of it, and with due respect to the Australian Goliaths, there is no one in the Australian team who could fill Flintoffs boots-as an all-rounder, batting at 6, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Rachael

For what it's worth, Tresco's overall 1st class average is just 35.05, Michael Vaughan's is just 38.38 and Flintoff's is just 35.83: none strike me as particularly impressive

Little wonder I never use stats much, Flintoff's stats are much more impressive that you sugest, remember his dreadfull start,very few players would have dragged them back so far.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest

So who is going to fill his boots at 6?, where Flintoff can rip any attack appart, including the Aussies, and why would you want to make such a move?.
On what grounds, no one in England could fill Flintoffs boots, we would loose the Ashes series for sure

He can't rip any attack apart and we don't know if he can rip the Aussies apart 'cause he's never played them in a test match environment.

We would lose the ashes for sure if we didn't have our best 11 anyway, so there's not much point in trying to make it sound as if Flintoff is the be all and end all of our Ashes hopes. Sure, he's an important player we need to have firing, but we need the other 10 playing out of their skins as well.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Pete

He can't rip any attack apart and we don't know if he can rip the Aussies apart 'cause he's never played them in a test match environment.

I don't agree, he is one of those types of players who can launch into an attack, and hit 100 in a run a ball, low down at 6, it can be McGrath, Warne himself bowling even, but he is so strong, he can reach over the ropes more than the others, and I sad "He can", not "He will"

Originally Posted by Pete

Sure, he's an important player we need to have firing, but we need the other 10 playing out of their skins as well.

True but you are missing my point, would England have beat Australia in 1981 only for the heroics of Botham?, the answer is no.

The true fact of the matter is, Flintoff IMHO is not replacable, it would take 2 players to fill his shoes, a batsman and a bowler, and possible a fielder.

Players are queuing up for the no 3 spot-Bell-Key-Pietersen, this is the difference, there is only one Flintoff.

Of course the other 10 players are just as important, but some are replacable, like Butcher wan'ts his place back, my post was in reply to Rachael, who always posts a team with Flintoff at 7, if you think that-fair enough, I don't.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I don't agree, he is one of those types of players who can launch into an attack, and hit 100 in a run a ball, low down at 6, it can be McGrath, Warne himself bowling even, but he is so strong, he can reach over the ropes more than the others, and I sad "He can", not "He will"

We don't know if he can and I doubt he'll make many runs against Warne. I hope he does, but Kumble showed him up before.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Pete

We don't know if he can and I doubt he'll make many runs against Warne. I hope he does, but Kumble showed him up before.

I would be be more concerned about what happened with Sarwan than Kumble, when in the West Indies.

I think we all know he has a good eye, he see's the ball early, that will stand him in good stead against the likes of McGrath, pace holds few problems for Flintoff.
Warne is another matter, I really don't know if the ball is turning to say, play each ball on it's merit, or to hell with it, open your shoulders and see what happens.

But if there is nothing in the pitch for Warne, then he is just another bowler, the down side is, there would be nothing for Giles either.