It's round 1 between Steve Harmison and Geoffrey Boycott.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Leave out the first test of the 2005 Ashes... but had Thorpe played instead of Harmison in 2005... England's chances would have been better!

Two points

1. You can't take out one performance out of a career to make a point. A player is the sum of his whole career. It is a bit like saying take out the matches when Bradman scored a hundred to judge how good he was. It is bizare and unreal
2. Not sure why you are brining Thorpe into this debate he retired three years ago.. as it was England won the series, so what does it matter if our chances would "have been better"!!

PS would Thorpe having taken the crucial wickets of Clarke or Kasprowicz at Edgbaston?

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Aurelius

I can't think of one instance off the top of my head where [Geoffrey Boycott] said, "Now what X has to do is this," or even "X needs to work harder with the coaches, and seek out past players."

Aurelius, with respect, I think you must have missed a lot of Boycott's commentary on Test Match Special in the last couple of years. I'm not here as a great defender of the man - he's quite capable of telling you himself what a brilliant cricketer he was - but in fact he is not afraid to criticise and he almost always, when speaking on the radio, is precise about what he is criticising and how he believes it needs to be fixed. He's probably a bit sharper with his analysis of batsmen's problems than bowlers', but, like Boycott or loathe him, I don't think it's fair to say he never has a constructive word to say.

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

Regarding Boycott, treat him in the same way as any other Cricket pundit, some of what he says is good, some of what his says is bad and some of what he says is simply bizarre, but there's no point in getting upset about it.

Aye, Scott, you're probably right and Geoffrey himself probably doesn't expect everyone to agree with him all the time.

Originally Posted by Scott-Wozniak

I think Harmison should have simply ignored his comments and shown that he didn't care about them, unfortunately by responding he's shown that he does and Boycott achieved his objective.

I'm sure Boycott did not expect a professional sportsman to waste time and energy publicly rebutting his criticism - and I'm with you: Harmison needs to harden himself against the commentators' opinions and let his bowling do the talking. I'm not sure Boycott has achieved his objective by getting Harmison to react in the press though. I'm not even sure I know what the objective was, but provoking a newspaper column response certainly wasn't it. If he's encouraged Harmison to get his bowling sorted out, or the selectors to dump a non-performer, Boycott might have achieved an objective: it's far more likely in my view that that was what he was aiming at than the newspaper spat.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Occasional Fan

he almost always, when speaking on the radio, is precise about what he is criticising and how he believes it needs to be fixed. He's probably a bit sharper with his analysis of batsmen's problems than bowlers', but [...] I don't think it's fair to say he never has a constructive word to say.

Absolutely. Boycott seems to me to have grown immensely as summariser in the last few years, and he has a damn sight more tact than he's generally given credit for: I can see why he's always been kept away from the official setup... but he's not the liability that (for instance) Botham (or perhaps even Hussain) would be.

Boycott's always honest... and having had to work hard at game that came rather more naturally to others around him has given him a useful perspective on batting. He's quite clear in his own mind that no matter HOW naturally you can hit the ball... there's room for working on your game for those times when it just ain't working (like at the start of your innings). I find him good value on the remarks he makes about areas where players need to develop... and I get the impression that Collingwood and others have been only to willing to hear what Boycott has had to say to them once a series is over.

I think he's becoming an elder statesman of the commentary box... and in a positive way: Trueman just became a tiresome bore... but Boycott has changed his tune and come to see the game differently and clearly has more time for the changing face of the game than Trueman ever had.

I'd always prefer the analysis of Atherton, Fraser or Tufnell... but Boycott's good enough value for me.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by greg

Since the start of the ashes 2005 he has played in 27 tests taking 91 wickets @ 35.95 if you think that is good enough then you have far lower standards than me.

If you exclude the last Ashes in Aus his ave comes down to 30 ish which isnt too bad, considering its rare for an English quick to average much less than that and he's not exactly been fully fit or firing in the last 3 years.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Absolutely. Boycott seems to me to have grown immensely as summariser in the last few years, and he has a damn sight more tact than he's generally given credit for: I can see why he's always been kept away from the official setup... but he's not the liability that (for instance) Botham (or perhaps even Hussain) would be.

Boycott and tact, do those words go together. I think you have him mixed up with someone else on the radio. He's been kept away from the official setup because he likes the sound of his own voice too much. When he was semi involved a few years ago he praised the players who had done well claiming it was because they had listened to him and slated the ones who had failed by saying they hadn't listened to him! Regardless if they had or they hadn't.

[Occasional Fan]

PC, surely there's an element of "that was then and this is now"? Boycott may not win prizes for tact - he's making a living out of being a straight talking Yorkshireman after all - but, for whatever reason, he's not part of the official set up and probably never will be: on the other hand, he's turned to broadcasting and writing about the sport where some fearless straight talking works in his favour, at least as far as I am concerned.

Incidentally, his advice is available to all-comers. I overheard him talking to an autograph hunter at Trent Bridge last summer:

AH: May I have your autograph, please, Mr Boycott?
GB: Aye, of course. Let's 'ave your pen.
AH: Sorry, I don't have a pen.
GB: Well, I can't 'elp you. That's like goin' in to bat wi'out a bat.

I guess it will be lesson learned for the autograph hunter!

[greg]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

If you exclude the last Ashes in Aus his ave comes down to 30 ish which isnt too bad, considering its rare for an English quick to average much less than that and he's not exactly been fully fit or firing in the last 3 years.

Oh well lets just pick and choose his games that we look at then.

I guess you would only look at the games he has done well in,sadly you have to go a long way back for most of them.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Occasional Fan

Boycott may not win prizes for tact - he's making a living out of being a straight talking Yorkshireman after all ...

Too true! Boycott does annoy me though because its clear listening to him that he does know a lot about the game and can at times talk sense....

Unfortunately he then likes to keep talking and generally likes to rubbish players to make himself sound important.

Originally Posted by greg

Oh well lets just pick and choose his games that we look at then.

I guess you would only look at the games he has done well in,sadly you have to go a long way back for most of them.

Eh, I only omitted one series out of all since 2005. Thats hardly picking and choosing or going back a long way

We have had a lot of comments saying "he's bowled rubbish since SA 2004", the stats show (one series apart) otherwise.

[south beds mikey]

This seems pretty straight forward to me.

Boycott simply spoke the truth as far as I can tell. Harmy really needs to decide what he wants to do.

If he wants to be on the 250 grand plus salary he has to make some personal sacrifices; those of us lucky enough to be in that position commercially in the real world ALL do that!!

We all spend time away from home and don't travel business class all the time either with several backroom staff making all the arrangements for us, we don't have a plethora of staff looking after our every need either.

Perhaps he should stop spitting his dummy out and have a good hard look at his performances. Honestly the whinges of all these guys make me wonder what they would do if they had to work in a factory or down a mine like plenty of decent hard working people do

Rant over. Boycott told it like it is and we should point out that he performed over a career of two decades consisitantly. Something Harmy should try to replicate.

Personaly I hope he makes it back as he gives us a different dimension (although with the likes of Finn on the scene he might have to shape up sharpish)

In short grow up and get on with it. Rather than blaming everyone else (including I believe the speed clock in NZ) sort yourself out!!