UK "Pura Cup": who'd be up to it?

[Andy Mellon]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Jefferson, Newman, Hutton, Brown, Yardy, Clarke, Napier, Jon Batty (wk), Martin-Jenkins, Saggars, Doshi

Sadly.. I think even Andy M would be hard pressed to see that side starting as favourites against Pakistan or the WI!

Actually, that looks a very decent one-day team at the very least. However, I'm very disappointed to see no Essex players in the South team. Also, your North team looks so contrived with half of the players from the South. If you going to make a mockery of the regions, don't even bother and just make 4 balanced teams from the players available. You might even be able to make 5 teams if you ignored the regions.

If we can get 10 opening batsmen, 5 wicket keepers (easy), 5 spinners, 15 seamers and 20 middle order batsmen then it might be a bit less contrived.

And actually, seeing how erratic Pakistan and the Windies can be, I think there would be a good match between those sides and the side you mention. You'd still back the internationals to win, but as an England A side, the one you list would be pretty decent.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

I think if you are going to do this you should include some of the younger players - the South team has 6 players over 30.. All good provedn players.... But I would like to see the devleopment of some younger talent..

This is always the conundrum, isn't it: the short term imperative to win invariably needs to be set against the longer term need to bring people through. My response is simply this: the sides in domestic cricket should no more compromise their competitiveness now for future gain than should the Test side.

Now.. I'm not averse to that sort of compromise.. but it surely has to be measured: I'd hope that any UK version of the Pura cup would see squads in place that found room for (amongst others) Jefferson, Gidman, Franks and Davies... not least on the understanding that International duty would decimate several of the sides!

One reason I started this exercise was to see what sort of opportunities England prospects would face if we actually decided to take radical steps to get a truly great 1st class game.. without all those supposedly very ordinary Kolpakers you can't stand: my impression is that the opportunities would actually be pretty slim.

The "South" side I mentioned might lose Thorpe pretty soon.. and Butcher might retire: if the others hadn't signed for another region then Jefferson might face direct competition from Ali Brown and Chris Adams. Now THAT would be tough competition for places.

I guess my point is that we've little business complaining about the way second rte Kolpakers are restricting opportunities for young England-qualified players: compared with one alternative system they get it pretty darned easy right now.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Andy Mellon

If we can get 10 opening batsmen, 5 wicket keepers (easy), 5 spinners, 15 seamers and 20 middle order batsmen then it might be a bit less contrived.

Go for it! If we can get 5 quality sides then that will be quite encouraging.

[Andy Mellon]

Well, I'll do the easy bit (and sticking to England qualified players)

5 wicket keepers: Foster, Prior, Read, Wallace, GO Jones (plus backup from Adshead and Mustard)
5 spinners: Giles, Batty, Swann, Doshi, Keedy
10 openers: Vaughan, Trescothick, Strauss, Knight, Wagh, Jefferson, Powell, Solanki, Cook, Newman

The openers proved to be a bit more difficult. I've tried to go for specialist openers rather than people who could serve as openers. There's a mix of tried and tested internationals, seasoned county/England A pros and future England players. I tried to think of the first 10 that came into my head, so I'm sure there may be alternatives to a few of these names.

Anyone willing to try the middle order and seamers? I think if we could have 5 all-rounders and 15 middle order batsmen rather than 20 middle order batsmen, it might help the overall team balance.

[Rachael]

Two thoughts on the names to date: Key and Spearman would strike me as more convincing than Cook and Solanki (though Solanki might figure in the middle order pool).. and Wallace has to be considered in that role... and Croft might well need to be considered as one of the inital 5 spinners (not sure who would miss out though).

On the "all-rounders" front we have to be flexible: the main thing is that any given side has decent balance.. and there are many ways to skin that cat. I'm going to give Wallace, GO Jones and Prior the benefit of the doubt as no 6 batsmen and suggest this lot:

Bell + Flintoff + Read + Keedy + 2 x specialist seamers
Prior + Giles + 4 seamers
Collingwood + Foster + Swann + 3 seamers
Wallace + Wharf + Croft + 3 seamers
Jones + Batty + 4 seamers

That's taking the batting of Flintoff, Collingwood, Giles, Wharf, Batty and Croft as all quite respectable.

[flanflinger]

PS watched Rikki Clarke hit a very good 50 today... he is looking so much better than when he appeared at International level.

Rachael is correct that last season was not his best. But I thought about it today and many players have poor seasons, and to judge his career on that, or a few early performances at International level, would be grossely unfair.

James Benning and Nicky Peng also looked good today...

[Andy Mellon]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Two thoughts on the names to date: Key and Spearman would strike me as more convincing than Cook and Solanki (though Solanki might figure in the middle order pool).. and Wallace has to be considered in that role... and Croft might well need to be considered as one of the inital 5 spinners (not sure who would miss out though)..

Well, Key would me in my middle order - not as opener. Spearman was excluded as I'd prefer to see if we could get English players in the teams first and foremost and then see where Kolpakers could be used to improve the final teams.

I missed off Croft as I doubt he's got much longer left and he's certainly no better a bowler than the names mentioned. He could unseat Doshi or Keedy based on batting prowess; but I'd hesistate to use a player whose career is on the wane and not on the way up

[Notts Exile]

Ryan Sidebottom doesn't seem to be getting much of a mention at the moment. He's the man bowling Notts to the top of the Championship. Paul Franks is really struggling at the moment.

And as for Matt Mason being in the Kolpak/Dodgy passport XI ahead of Greg Smith!!!

[Rachael]

Good to see you here NE: we've been missing your input on this thread. Any general thoughts about the sort of numbers of players we're talking about? Are we missing out too many good players?

I've a feeling that there remain some seasoned county journeymen we've missed who would cut it at this level: we've got Saggers and Ali Brown... bt I suspect we've been rather hotter on the "prospects" than the guys who a genuine club coach would want around him.

[Notts Exile]

The truth is Rachael, it's very difficult to go through this process. Probably more difficut than the A-Team we selected at the end of last season! Most of us are biased towards players at our own counties. For example: I'd look at the likes of Jason Gallian and Darren Bicknell and suggest they would both have made a career in Australia. I'd then suggest that Ali Brown on the bigger grounds in Australia might not have the same fun he has in England. Would Saggers get enough movement to be able to cut it in Oz? The likes of Tremlett, David Harrison, Shreck at Notts would all have some fun with their height and the bounce they'd get on those bouncy pitches.

I hear a complaint that Mark Davies of Durham isn't getting enough of a mention. Well, if I were taking a side to compete with the Australian States on their pitches he wouldn't be in my team either! That's not to say he's not a quality performer on English county wickets.

Scott Newman might do quite well down there as he's used to the hard pitches. But he'd have to be less impetuous.

It's easy to pick youngsters who are having a good time of it. It's more difficult to chose those who will stil be doing it in two or three years time. Young Bilal Shafayat is a perfect example of a young player whose career hasn't quite gone to plan but who is back in people's thoughts. He was the New Kid on The Block at Notts a couple of years ago and destined for great things, then a couple of bad summers and a transfer to Northants and everyone wonders what he'll do. A spot as an opener and some good knocks and he's back there as someone people are talking about again!