Winter Worries For England..>

[Ernest]

Oh it seems an age from England winning the Ashes-since then they have been beaten 2-0 on their Pakistan tour.

On top of that they have been thrashed in the one dayers, even with players like Flintoff and Trescothick in the side.

Excuses will be made, but their can be no excuse for playing two spinners in a country that has always thrived on spin.
Had Jimmy Anderson or Plunkett been used in place of Udal, might have been a different outcome in the Tests.
Englands strength is Pace and has been the strong point , yet we played to Pakistans strength by playing Udal, and an injured Giles.
You can read about Englands Winter Worries and decide if we can beat India or not, or even Pakistan in England.

Anyone think this is just a blip in Englands fortunes?, or is there a fundimental fault with the England squad?.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Excuses will be made, but their can be no excuse for playing two spinners in a country that has always thrived on spin.

Pakistan is NOT a country that has always thrived on spin... and the batting has historically (despite notable exceptions like Mohammad Yousuf) been more vulnerable against spin than against pace. Typically, Inzi has been described as perhaps the world's best player of fast bowling: if you want a great against spin you would look elsewhere (not that he's bad against spin, it just ain't his strength).

If you look at Pakistan's most celebrated bowlers (Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib) and at what INzi says about the upcoming series against INdia (Pakistan's strength is pace) then you get a better picture of cricket in Pakstan: the country has produced some very spinners... but by and large they haven't found wickets in Pakistan THAT much more helpful than Giles and Udal found them!

[Trescothick]

It will be very interesting to see this India tour with Simon Jones back in the side and we can implement the reverse swing and also hes just naturally a great wicket taker... I'm looking forward to seeing England perform more as they did in the Ashes...

I also want to see our batsmen dig in more, we have the talent of any nation in that department its just getting it right, I can't see why we should be so prone to middle order collapses, and if we are then we need to get more opening partnerships as we did in Ashes not Pakistan. Hopefully with S. Jones back in the attack, our batsmen will feel less pressure and play their natural and better game..

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Pakistan is NOT a country that has always thrived on spin... and the batting has historically (despite notable exceptions like Mohammad Yousuf) been more vulnerable against spin than against pace.

Pakistan has produced more spin bowlers of note than has England, who in the last 60 years have just produced Underwood-Tuffers-Edmunds and Embury, and no leg spinner at all of note.

Originally Posted by Rachael

If you look at Pakistan's most celebrated bowlers (Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib) and at what INzi says about the upcoming series against INdia (Pakistan's strength is pace)

Yes at the moment it is, but the four pace bowlers you have mentioned above is the sum total of any Pakistan pace bowler of note IMO.
England have produced lots of genuine pace bowlers like Flintoff-Harmison-Snow-Willis-Botham-Arnold-Peter Lever-Shuttleworth-Old-Dilly- and yes Devon Malcolm was better than most subcontinent pace bowlers, and better at his time than any other in England.
The fact is England were bamboozleed by Afridi not a front line spinner, and Kaneria scared England of winning at Multan.
England had a problem with Warne, and thus far this winter they have had a problem with the likes of Adridi and Kaneria-yes they do have problems in MHO in particular if they carry that strange selection of two spinners.

[Beny]

May I suggest something... Perhaps that Australia did more to lose the Ashes than England did to win them??That England have been playing the same way they we're against Australia- except that the Pakistani's have the team and the form to punish them for the mistakes which Australia failed to capitalise on.

Let's be serious people... Bangladesh beat that Aussie team.

[Vrock]

I guess that no matter how much you praise England's attack, they lack a spinner that can win a game IMO. Giles has been said to be in the side to play the "holding role". This just isn't enough on pitches that are doing more for the spinners than the pace bowlers.

I also think that the batting needs to be more patient and not go all guns blazing.

[Henners]

Originally Posted by Ernest

On top of that they have been thrashed in the one dayers, even with players like Flintoff and Trescothick in the side.

3-2 isn't really thrashed, they were notably outplayed in 2 but it was actually to some extent close

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Beny

May I suggest something... Perhaps that Australia did more to lose the Ashes than England did to win them??That England have been playing the same way they we're against Australia

No I don't think Australia lost the Ashes, it was IMO a time for change to a new order for Austraia, Englands batting is not the best(I said this before the Ashes) and Austraia could for reasons not capitalise on this I agree with that, but Shoaib has shown along with Afridi just how poor Englands batting is

Originally Posted by Vrock7 84474

I guess that no matter how much you praise England's attack, they lack a spinner that can win a game IMO. Giles has been said to be in the side to play the "holding role".

Even if we had a first class spinner it IMO would have made little difference because in the first Test at Multan England ourplayed Pakistan for most of the game, and with only a small total to get, the batting crumbled

Originally Posted by Henners 84525

3-2 isn't really thrashed, they were notably outplayed in 2 but it was actually to some extent close

Well I was talking about the tour as a whole really it was a disaster I think, I know in the one dayers we only lost 3-2, but did we not lose one of the games by a record margin?, after India we really do need to have a look at the batting, and perhaps bring in a couple of unknowns(bread and butter players) it has worked before with David Steele.

[Mongoose]

I don't think there's such a huge crisis as some make out after the Pakistan series. I think England over-performed slightly against Australia, and under-performed slightly in Pakistan (considering also that they were inexperienced in those conditions, and that, after the first few days in Multan, Pakistan played day after day of bloody good cricket).

I think the England-Pakistan series next year will be close, and I also think England will give it a good go in India, although India definitely start as favourites. The form shown by India and Pakistan is a reminder of how difficult it will be for England to become the undisputed world no.1 team. There's plenty of competition.

[cantplaycantalk]

England underperformed in this tour, Australia underperformed in England. The Aussies appear to be hanging on to players who have gone past the peak and well down the other side of the hill. It has taken the shock of an Ashes loss for Mike Hussey to get into the team, Martyn and Katich were simply not up to the same standard as the recent high class aussie middle order, Gilchrist and Hayden were found out against the high class England pace attack, Clarke didn't come up to standardso that left an awful lot on Langer, Ponting and the Tail. The Aussie bowling without McGrath looked toothless untill Warne came on so it came down to a moderate batting line up and a high class pace attack from England vs a moderate batting line up and a moderate bowling line up for Aus. On the English style wickets without a lot of spin it was advantage England.

England were underprepared in Pakistan, with batsmen out of form, out of practice and in unfamiliar conditions, they were also missing the best English bowler for the conditions (Jones).
How will Pakistan handle English conditions, we will see, could be interesting.
How will England handle Australian conditions next winter could be interesting (or just depresing from an English viewpoint)
At least we waited for the Aussies to get a bit of practice in, if we had played the Ashes 1st up and then the ODI's , and caught the Aussies in the lose vs Bangladesh form...