Vaughan

[greg]

Hussain was awful for a long period before the tour of Pakistan.He had hardly scored a run in about 18 months and there was talk of whether he should be dropped.At least Vaughan drops a hundred in here and there despite his lack of consistancy.

[Collyisamackem]

Ground to a halt? Ern, what was his biggest score of 2005 again?

Just making a point.

[flanflinger]

Ern has some bizarre blind spots - Bell and Vaughan are two of them - no matter how well they play he would drop them.

Yes, Vaughan has the assistance of four good bowlers, but they don't set the fields or decide when to bring themselves on, how many times in the Ashes did a bowler start a spell and get a quick wicket? How many times did Hayden look up to see a fielder standing at short mid-off?

Flintoff and Harmison have both stated that Vaughan as Captain has turned their careers around.

I would prefer to see him in the Test team, and as Captain, than any other current player you can name.

Another blind spot is Flintoff, he can have a terrible game but Ern will blame everyone but him.

[Ernest]

I fear greg is right about Hussain, however England would without doubt have been more disiplined in Pakistan.

Vaughan has made the odd good score Colly, but no way is he a good enough batsman to carry England, and this is over a 2 year period.

If what greag says is true, then the time may have come to do away with captains away from home in particular, and have a commitee running the team, and a captain running to order.
Botham Gower etal being captain got to them all, a that included Brian Lara a much better batsman that Vaughan.

[Ernest]

I find this a strange post ff, what has Bell done except to prove what he can do on a flat pitch, in fact the selectors agreed, his place in danger only for injury.

Vaughan has not pulled his weight batting for some time now, even with the world no 1 pace attack for him to use.

Now I don't have a blind spot for Flintoff as a batsman, I even critisised his for getting sloshed the day after England had got the Ashes back.
Without Flintoff England would not have won the Ashes.
Flintoff was top of the batting averages against West Indies
I think Flintoff was also top of the bowling.
Flintoff and Hoggard made it possible to win in South africa depite Flintpff not doing a lot with the bat..
Flintoff knocked Lara out of his stride in West Indies.
Even though not doing well in Pakistan, Flintoff took wickets.

Let Vaughan match that, also with a player giving performances like that, He had a much easier time than previous England captains.
I was not blind despite getting wickets I critisised his batting in Paksitan, I even doubted his commitment.

Before this tour I think Bell had the same average as key 10.whatever
EDIT:

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Ern has some bizarre blind spots - Bell and Vaughan are two of them - no matter how well they play he would drop them.

I don't think in England there is much danger of these two playing well ff, with respect I think Bell really is a flat track bully, so it would depend on where England were plaing on his selection.
You are right, he would not get a game in England against Shoaib.
But to be fair to Bell, he has played better than Vaughan who got to world no 1, and has been on a steady decline ever since.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

with respect I think Bell really is a flat track bully, so it would depend on where England were plaing on his selection.

And Key is not a flat-track bully?

Bell is a player of the highest quality, according to this months Wisden Cricketer when Jones and Harmison first bowled at the 18 year old Bell at the academy they agreed "This boy's got something".

If you don't see that, then that is your problem, but let's talk about this in 5 years time, when I believe you will be proved wrong.

Who would you have as skipper over Vaughan? Who would you have in the batting line up? There is not a current player in England with more Test centuries than Vaughan, if you don't see that, or you refuse to, then I am very surprised as generally I feel you have good judgment?

I am a big fan of Flintoff, but even I have to admit that sometimes he plays shots (and get out) that makes you want to bang his head against a wall, surely you must feel that frustration too!!

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Vaughan has made the odd good score Colly, but no way is he a good enough batsman to carry England, and this is over a 2 year period..

In the last two years he has scored 5 hundreds that is more than just the "odd good score"!!

I know Vaughan has not been as prolific, and we have discussed this, but I would prefer to see him coming into bat with 15 hundreds to his name (more than Hussain and one less than Atherton -in less than half the Test matches) than Key or any other untested Batter you can name..

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

And Key is not a flat-track bully?

I really don't know, I don't think he did get enough of a chance though, it's always a matter of preference, but I would rather have key than Bell.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Who would you have as skipper over Vaughan? Who would you have in the batting line up.

First I might be tempted to give Giles a go, or I might bring in an outsider, as for bringing in another batsman, I would go back in time and bring in a bread and butter player from the counties who plays spin all the time, It worked with Davis Steele a few years ago

Originally Posted by flanflinger

I am a big fan of Flintoff, but even I have to admit that sometimes he plays shots (and get out) that makes you want to bang his head against a wall, surely you must feel that frustration too!!

I agree over Flintoff but he id not expected to play like Vaughan or Bell, and gets away with it more because he is one of the top three bowlers, yes he does get on my nerves at times.

Originally Posted by flanflinger 86722

In the last two years he has scored 5 hundreds that is more than just the "odd good score"!!

In a crisis ff I just have no faith in him, unlike Inzi he is not able to steer his side out of troube
I think I am fed up with the whole England batting, as to many changes have been made to soon.
Colly Bell and Pietersen batting with Flintoff IMO is wrong, in fact is it wise to have those 2 in the same side I wonder?
Tresco and Strauss can be world class. but also vunerable more times that a classs player should.

So if Vaughan has to stay, he needs to have more determination, because when a wicket falls early, I expect vaughan to follow not long after, and in England the same with Bell.

This is not the team that had so much success for 2 years only loseing one match to SA, we had Thorpe and Butcher to hold the innnings together than, and Flintoff and Jones seem to play with more sence.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

I know Vaughan has not been as prolific, and we have discussed this, but I would prefer to see him coming into bat with 15 hundreds to his name (more than Hussain and one less than Atherton -in less than half the Test matches) than Key or any other untested Batter you can name..

I hope I am wrong ff, But england came a long way in 2 years, even with moderate batsmen, I think we need at least one major change, and Flintoff and KP seperating, and Vaughan gringing his way back into form, he need not score that many runs, but as captain I think he has to keep an end up, the same with Bell, but I am not holding my breath.
Pakistan will be a brilliant test for all our batsmen, Shoaib and Sami in green wickets.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Ernest

First I might be tempted to give Giles a go, or I might bring in an outsider,

Giles or an outsider?! This is the England captaincy, not to be handed out like a packet of sweeties. And it is rather ironic that you moan about Vaughan not being good enough with the bat meaning he has to go, and then you say replace him with Giles as Captain!

I'm frustrated with Vaughan's batting and his abysmal catching, but I don't think he should be dropped (Except by the opposition when he's batting).

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Pete

I'm frustrated with Vaughan's batting and his abysmal catching, but I don't think he should be dropped (Except by the opposition when he's batting).

At times this works Pete, I could put up with Vaughans batting when we had the likes of Thorpe and a fit Butcher.
I really don't think the balance of Englands batting is right, I believe that with Thorpe in the side seperating KP and Flintoff, England would would have won at Multan and that would have altered the mood of the tour.

The matter of Vaughan will IMO have to be addressed if Vaughan does not get a score of two in India, where the bowling I think will be more friendly, and get at least a draw, and a good performence against Pakistan in England.