Congratulations England

[Collyisamackem]

The thing is though, OT was the decisive game of the series and everybody knew it. Look at Lords last year - we lsot the test but Harmy is a big game bowler who we need with the new ball, and has bowled with Hoggy for a long time as well as combining well with Monty at OT and in other games largely - I'm a great believer in bowling partnerships.

Beside, since Pakistan tried a whole range of inexperienced batsmen at the top of the order, and their tailenders batted quite well at times, not forgetting that Shahid Afridi batted at 9 two games running.

[Vrock]

Partnership wise Colly, you have outlined a good point that Hoggy and GBH have made a good new ball partnership.

The only problem is Harmison is far too wayward before he gets into rhythm, especially if the pitch isn't allowing the ball to greatly trouble the batsmen like Old Trafford did. Surely he knows by now he is a rhythm bowler and not one to to be on the money straight away like Flintoff is?

Also, one thing over Harmy which has really stumped me, where has his slower ball gone walking off to?

[Collyisamackem]

Freddie is not a new ball bowler, nor has he the pace of Harmison - he has to work very hard to get up to 90mph whilst also being an important batsman and, of course if it still the case, captaining the team. Freddie has more success reversing the semi-new/older ball or joining Harmy for a bit of the new ball later if Hoggy isn't swinging it (which, of course, isn't that common!). I've never ever liked seeing Freddie take the new ball and I don't see it as his role in the team. If Simon Jones makes it back and there was a time to try something different with the new ball, I'd suggest he were given it as he can really swing a ball.

As for Harmy's slower ball, I'd wondered that myself. Not having seen much of this test I don't know if he tried many, but he hasn't used them like Shoaib did last winter. There's no reason why he shouldn't though, Michael Clarke was amde to look very, very stupid last summer and I dare say a few more established test batsmen would also look similarly stupid if he were to bowl it more often.

[Vrock]

Originally Posted by Collyisamackem

Freddie is not a new ball bowler, nor has he the pace of Harmison - he has to work very hard to get up to 90mph whilst also being an important batsman and, of course if it still the case, captaining the team. Freddie has more success reversing the semi-new/older ball or joining Harmy for a bit of the new ball later if Hoggy isn't swinging it (which, of course, isn't that common!). I've never ever liked seeing Freddie take the new ball and I don't see it as his role in the team. If Simon Jones makes it back and there was a time to try something different with the new ball, I'd suggest he were given it as he can really swing a ball.

Sorry, Colly, I wasn't attempting to imply that Flintoff be given the new ball. Simply that he shouldn't try going for a batsman with 90mph+ deliveries before he gets into rhythm. I totally agree with all you write in the paragraph.

Originally Posted by Collyisamackem

As for Harmy's slower ball, I'd wondered that myself. Not having seen much of this test I don't know if he tried many

He didn't attempt any unless I've missed something. He must have forgotten how to bowl them since Troy Cooley left.

[Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Collyisamackem

Freddie is not a new ball bowler ... I've never ever liked seeing Freddie take the new ball and I don't see it as his role in the team. If Simon Jones makes it back and there was a time to try something different with the new ball, I'd suggest he were given it as he can really swing a ball.

Interesting this one, and something I thought about and discussed last year. If you look at Harmison, he should be the ideal new ball bowler. Tall and fast, so should get something out of the new ball. Yet I have always felt that he bowls better coming on as first change. I can only think this is something of a psychological thing, that he bowls differently as first change to opening. Maybe he falls into the trap, with the bouncier new ball, of feeling he should be banging it in shorter more often. That is his biggest failing I feel, and he often gets spanked off the shorter stuff. When he bowls fuller he gets wickets, as it's difficult to drive him with any confidence, due to his height and bounce, unless it's a rank half volley.

[Collyisamackem]

Maybe, but he can never be at his best bowling first change for me. It's a question of optimums, looking for example at our Ashes attack:

New Ball 1: Hoggard - Always gets an early wicket and swings it better than anyone in test cricket right now. The gets a rest and comes back later with his cutters and accuracy to nag at people.

New Ball 2: Harmison - Pace, bounce and an amount of swing. Has the ability to knock the top order over for way less than fifty on his day. Comes back later to target middle order batsmen/with the second new ball/general attacking bursts.

First Change: Flintoff - Knows conventional swing for the earlier deliveries, and reverse after 20 overs or so. Can bounce if it is happening or pitch it up if the pitch encourages more movement. All-rounder duties.

Second Change: Jones - Reverse, reverse, reverse. Can also go to first change or take the new ball to conventionally swing it. Usually gets a wicket with his first ball as a change bowler.

Giles (or latterly Panesar) - Spinners can be used as and when, but clearly it is chiefly with an older ball which will turn.

That, I feel, is the optimum balance of our attack. The change bowlers can be swapped, but as per their strengths that is how I see it working. Harmison is clearly not a Glenn McGrath, but has a better record than Brett Lee and is a better bowler on his day with the new or older ball, but the new one especially. Nobody likes to face a big paceman first up, and if his first over or so are on the money there's an instant psychological victory as the batsmen think "pace, bounce and he's outside my off stump/at my chest, I'm stuffed!". We just have to go with our strengths and more often than not if one of those guys has a bad day the rest produce.

In short, I don't see any problem.

[Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Collyisamackem

Maybe, but he can never be at his best bowling first change for me. It's a question of optimums

Yes, and while I maintain that I have found Harmy more impressive at first change than opening, he is our best bet with the new ball after Hoggard. Freddie and Jones are not opening bowlers. they are both at their best when the ball is reverse swinging, although you were right to point out that jones can also swing the new ball. So while I may disagree with you over Harmy's best position individually, I agree that he is our best option to partner Hoggy with the new ball.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Mongoose

you were right to point out that jones can also swing the new ball

Jones' Ashes performances surely marked him out as as the most complete bowler in world cricket: he had got over his concerns about bowling with the new ball, was demonstrating a most Hoggard-like ability to find a line that wouold make the batsmen play at nearly every delivery and above-all was showing all of the rest the way in terms of bowling on a full length

On top of the above he was able to demonstrate mastery of both conventional and reverse swing: he was perhaps not quite as masterful of the former as Hoggard (though he was doing much the same at greater pace) but his mastery of reverse swing was as good as anything any bowler has produced anywhere in the world in more than a decade.

I'd concede that Shoaib Akhtar has since shown slightly more guile when it comes to bowling slower balls... but Jones back to Ashes form would surely be an automatic selection for a world Xi, if not as opening partner for Akhtar (though only McGrath at his best could contest that) then as thrid seamer. For England I'd certainly expect him to take the new ball and then operate in short burst with attacking fields as the "partnership breaker" whilst the others focussed on building pressure.

[Quagmire]

Ntini would be up there and if Bond was fully fit he would definatly be opening the bowling. In ODI's Pollock would have to take the new ball, with either McGrath, Lee, Bond or Flintoff.

Jones is a great bowler though.

[Ernest]

Flintoff has shown he can be a new ball bowler, there is no doubt he has the pace coupled with accuracy to be just that.
I think though that if he comes of the all well and good, but i think he bowled his best when Giles was at the other end creating pressure by keeping it tight.
He may not be as natural as Harmison bowling at 90 MPH, however when he does bowl in the 90s, he is as effective as Harmison, if anything he bangs the ball in harder just short of a length.