Can England ever be great??

[butchering lee]

not if this is true...

"Equally to the point, and with due respect to the ICC, no one in England really cares much about the Champions Trophy except in its relevance to the genuinely momentous cricket that follows so hard on its heels."
Christopher Martin-Jenkins says what most England supporters have been thinking for months

[Moss]

I believe that England can be the best Test side in the world, perhaps in a few years. That should be enough, but...

Nowadays (yarr!) one is expected to be top class in both forms of the game. To be the best, I think people expect England to be like Australia and dominate both Test and ODI forms of the game.

I am in two minds about the Champions Trophy. Yes, it's yet another fixture of no real significance, but on the other hand it does give people a chance to bolster their averages by thrashing minnows. Ahem.

[Victor Frankenstein]

minnows like england i assume you mean? seeing as we struggled to beat ireland who don't even have full odi status, and i'd expect bangladesh to beat us on current form, especially in india.

[Pabs]

Originally Posted by Moss

I am in two minds about the Champions Trophy. Yes, it's yet another fixture of no real significance, but on the other hand it does give people a chance to bolster their averages by thrashing minnows. Ahem.

Why is it a fixture of no real significance? Surely any game where two well-matched sides meet is a fixture of significance? I find the recent obsession with the Ashes (and to a lesser extent, the World Cup) a bit worrying. Would hate cricket to go the way of football, where there are only two 'competitive' tournaments, and everything else is just 'meaningless friendlies'.

[Ernest]

butchering lee,

I think that over the past 3 years or so - England have lost every one day series with a thrashing other that against Australia in 2005.

Even a then down and out West Indies side thrashed the England one day side.

Made no difference playing our best side, a side of this and that players - England are no goos at one day cricket.

Test cricket though is a different matter - England beat all before then including Australia in 2005, and really should have beat Pakistan Multan later that year. Al credit tp Pakistan they pulled England down a peg.

England got a credible drawn series in India earlier this year, despite nore injuries than ever before, including the loss of Captain Vaughan.

Sri lanka and Pakistan - well other than Lords when England dropped every catch they could - they have never had a settled team - Flintoff vanished out of the side, now it appears Treasothick has been ill.

What I am saying is that if the missing England players make a recovery in time for the Ashs which I suspect most will do (maybe not Simon Jones), and win in Australia which I expect they will - then yes England will in the Test arena be a great team.
In other words don't go by one day form - but do wonder how so many England players managed to get injured before the Ashes series - I certainly do.

[John]

Originally Posted by Ernest

What I am saying is that if the missing England players make a recovery in time for the Ashs which I suspect most will do (maybe not Simon Jones), and win in Australia which I expect they will - then yes England will in the Test arena be a great team.

If England beat Australia they will be the number Test side in the world. They won't be a great side in the sense WI and Australia. They would have to dominant Test cricket like those two sides. Even more so seeing England aren't producing in the one day arena.
If they retain they the Ashes it will be well down the road to claims of great side. In fact a lot depends on this winter if England lose the Ashes something of their achievements of the last few will be undermined. They haven't been overly impressive since last summer so a defeat in Australia will of been two steps backward one step forward.

[Ernest]

I don't take this winters for that seriously because of injuries and missing players - and I mean missing.

I agree that England must beat Australia this year to start being a great team - I agree with you 100% there.

IMO England start slight favorites on the grounds that their players "have" been rested, I think some players will be returning with their wounds licked and healed.

[John]

Originally Posted by Ernest

IMO England start slight favorites on the grounds that their players "have" been rested, I think some players will be returning with their wounds licked and healed.

Like you I think if England are more less fully fit they will be difficult to beat. But yet again home advantage plays a part. Sides are difficult to beat when they are at home and twice more so when they are good sides playing at home. Not too many good sides get beaten on home territory.
Tell me the number of good sides get beaten at home?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by John

Tell me the number of good sides get beaten at home?

That's a good point John, but I wonder how good Australia are at the moment, a lot depends have they brought new blood in, are are they going to risk McGrath, breaking down.

Also on top of that there will be pressure on the Aussies to deliver after being shocked in 2005 when the Ashes went, that will compensate England some way for not having home advantage.

[Rachael]

Which contest in cricket is currently supposed to be more momentous than playing the Aussies in a five Test series in their own back yard? For all England's promise of recent times, Australia remain THE challenge. If all eyes are focussed on that... and things like pyjama cricket are used as opportunities to try out potential Test players like Onions... then so what: that's just making sensible preparations for the big event.

Playing the Aussies in their own back yard in a Test series is to cricket what the World Cup is to International soccer and what the Champions League is to domestic soccer: it's so big that everything else pales in comparison. Get it right, in a fashion that doesn't seem flukey, and really... the team has got what matters.

I'd agree that any side wanting to be considered 'great' also has to beat the best of the rest in away Test series... and in particular manage well in alien conditions (sub-continental teams in the UK and NZ, and vice-versa)... but really - pyjama cricket success (or lack of it) ain't going to change anything.