England should able to bat out the final two days.

[Beny]

Ern,

I'm not sure what speed gun you're looking at- or for that matter what figure's you're looking at, but McGrath has averaged about 127km/ph which is as fast has he has been for the past few years. That he tore apart England in the first Innings should put to rest any concerns you might have about his effectivness.

I think England are going to struggle today- Unless KP get's 150+ their bottom order is going to have to put up with Shane Warne bowling on his dream surface.

Question is weather rain might save them...

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Beny

Ern,That he tore apart England in the first Innings should put to rest any concerns you might have about his effectivness.

Not saying he is not effective Beny, what I am saying in my threadstart is that the England batsmen have played him wrongly.
I am not even saying he is slow, but he is not IMO as fast as he was.
Now imagine Lee with Mcgraths accuracy, and you will get my point, look at the way the England batsmen got out in their first innings - it reminds me of the bad old days when the England batsmen wafted at every delivery.
Being that McGrath's main attribute is his accuracy, I think the England top order should have tried to grind him down until a less accurate bowler came on, I had an Aussie saying just that on TMS 'Thommo', his commentating is as good as his bowling was, bar his sore throat making him husky.

Originally Posted by Beny

I think England are going to struggle today- Unless KP get's 150+ their bottom order is going to have to put up with Shane Warne bowling on his dream surface.

Yes I agree - I am glad the game has gone into the 5th day to me that's a great plus for England, dead but not burried.

Originally Posted by Beny

Question is weather rain might save them...

Well I have mixed feeling on this, if England are to get a draw, then it should be with fight - not rain.
With the game ending even though, it could be good for the series, and those who have paid good money to see a contest.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Now imagine Lee with Mcgraths accuracy

Lee's fundamental problem is not accuracy... and whilst accuracy would help... what Lee really needs to learn from McGrath is guile. Right now, Lee turns to run in as if every single delivery is a one-off shot at a glory-ball. Even if he got two bowls right on the spot, ripping through the batsman off a perfect length, he'd STILL want to do something different with the next delivery... and he's got none of McGrath's disposition to set a bowler up over 2-3 overs.

Has he EVER even TRIED bowling six balls in the same spot when bowling flat out?

On a further point... even if Lee had the ability to land it where he wanted... that would be no use without the nous to work out the right spot: McGrath adjusts his position at the crease and his length to bring cracks into play... and landing the ball very accurately on those same cracks from the wrong position at the crease would be no use to anyone!

Last but not least... McGrath manages a perfect seam position and extracts a lot of bounce by virtue of beign a tall man with a very high action: without McGrath's ability to keep the seam absolutely upright Lee wouldn't get the deviation off the pitch and unless the rules of cricket were changed to allow Lee to build a 12" high platform leading up to the crease he ain't EVER going to hit the deck quite as impressivly - he's always going to get balls skidding through (with limited deviation) rather than leaping (often sideways).

So... Lee with McGrath's accuracy would still not be a match for McGrath!

[Ernest]

First the point of my thread was that England should be able to bat for two days if Australia have managed to score 600+ on this pitch.
I also said:-

Originally Posted by Ernest

They have nothing to lose by batting in a correct way, they have everything to gain, and can yet give the crowd - their moneys worth - again England can't win, if they apply themselves they can force a draw.

Well I was right to a point, AFTER I posted this thread - Mcgrath did not take any more wickets the England batsmen played him better than in their first innings.

It was Warne exploiting the pitch that undid England in their second innings, but with only 5 wickets down, it was an improvement to still be bating on day 5 - you could have got odds against that.
Mcgrath is all the things you say about him, he has nous - he is tall and can extract bounce, but I am not insulting him by saying he is 37? and must be slowing down, and the correct way the England batsmen should have played him in their first innings - was NOT to play him, he is human and if England had grafted he would have become frustrated.

Originally Posted by Ernest

The number of England wickets took behind including Flintoff shows a worried side, a side off form - England also have picked the wrong players.

I think this if fair comment over the England batsmen, being caught behind like they did shows a lack of technique at worst, or not playing each ball on it's merit at best.

Originally Posted by Ernest

If a player gets out to a ball because of the cracks (fair enough) but don't GIVE your wicket away, make Australia fight for every wicket.

And this has been the case - England batted better in their second innings (nothing to compare with Australia's innings) but an improved performance to take into the second Test at Adelaide.

Originally Posted by Ernest

At best England will save the match, take the match well into day 5, and England can come out of this game with some pride and confidence.
They have nothing to lose by batting in a correct way, they have everything to gain, and can yet give the crowd - their moneys worth.

Well this proves my point - England did bat better and against all the odds are coming out to bat on day 5, with Pietersen and Jones still at the crease, so the crowd have got some more play to watch - for which they have paid.

Originally Posted by Rachael

Lee's fundamental problem is not accuracy... and whilst accuracy would help... what Lee really needs to learn from McGrath is guile

That would come in time - Mcgrath is vastly more experienced than Lee, but what happens if McGrath breaks down tomorrow?, the other bowlers will just Cary on - Lee clarke and Warne.

[Quagmire]

There is are two big differences between Australia and England, Ponting, McGrath and Warne.

Warne will destroy whats left of the mediocar English batting line up.

Ern, your dreaming......

the only thing that could save England now is the weather

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Quagmire

mediocar English batting line up.

Spot on - that's been the point of my thread.

Originally Posted by Quagmire

Ern, your dreaming......

the only thing that could save England now is the weather

No be fair - I said England at best should be able to get a draw, but getting into day 5 after their dreadfull drubbing thus far would at least give them some confidence.
England have been outplayed by Australia - and if anyone thinks I mean different, they have obviously not read my threadstart.

[Quagmire]

Not many players are able to do much against Warne on a 5th day wicket. If they just try to defend against him trying the bat out the day there will be a lot of people around the bat and they will lose 5 wickets before Lunch. They need to play there natural games and if they bat well enough to get reasonably close to drawing then they should try to shut up shop.

[Ernest]

Warne has always been difficult to play , if he puts fielders round the bat though, then would mabe be the best time to attack him.
Talking of English batsmen - Pietersen has just got out to a leg stump half volley from Lee , should have left it alone in the first over.

[Quagmire]

Its over Pietersen is out. It is the best time to attack him but Australia have so many runs to play with there is no way that they can lose and if your looking to attack him on a fifth day pitch that batsman never really wins.

[Mr Hutt]

Originally Posted by Rachael

So... Lee with McGrath's accuracy would still not be a match for McGrath!

No Lee with Mcgrath accuracy would be Wasim Akram.... the greatest bowler to have lived and played this game!!