Ian Bell for captain

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by acker

Geez you blokes are hard on Bell

Not really acker - I make this pledge - once he is removed from the England set up, I will never mention him again .

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

, I will never mention him again

What have you got against Bell. The delight you take in minor failures, and your refusal to acknowledge even the most obvious success, leads me to conclude that you are either stupid or have some form of personal grudge..

http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?s...lds=viewty pe

Look at his figures versus Pakistan, last year, at the time they were no 2 in the world...would you really want him dropped just 8 months later?

These were his Ashes figures

http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?s...lds=viewty pe

Are they really that awful when compared with how badly the rest of the team did??? Would you really single him out above all the other Ashes failures

[Andy Mellon]

Why play Bell when there's a number of Lancastrians (or at least people who play for Lancashire) available for selection? We could be really forward thinking and pick Mal Loye, Stuart Law or Glen Chapple.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

What have you got against Bell.[...] leads me to conclude that you are either stupid or have some form of personal grudge.

Well think I am stupid if you like.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Look at his figures versus Pakistan, last year, at the time they were no 2 in the world...would you really want him dropped just 8 months later?

To be honest FF I am not bothered about what his figures were against Pakistan or Bangladesh - with respect to Pakistan they were nowhere near being #2 last year, they were a troubled team - look at their World Cup performance.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Are they really that awful when compared with how badly the rest of the team did??? Would you really single him out above all the other Ashes failures

No - but other members of the England side at least did well in 2005, Bell failed in 2005 and 2006, he is ok on subcontinental wickets, but against pace on quick wickets (I) have serious reservations.

Originally Posted by Andy Mellon 138955

Why play Bell when there's a number of Lancastrians (or at least people who play for Lancashire) available for selection? We could be really forward thinking and pick Mal Loye, Stuart Law or Glen Chapple.

Strange post from you Andy - bit sarcy, does Ramp's - Crawley or Butcher, or even Adams play for Lancashire?.

But Loye would have been more use in the World Cup than Vaughan, he could not have been worse.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

No - but other members of the England side at least did well in 2005, Bell failed in 2005 and 2006, he is ok on subcontinental wickets, but against pace on quick wickets (I) have serious reservations.

The 2005 series was his first full series of any note, and he did not play well, but blimey Ern how many 23 year olds in the first major series have!!

I don't actually think you are stupid, just seriously one-eyed!! I think Mellons was merely pointing out where you are most blinkered.

If Bell was born in Manchester and grew up playing for the Red Rose County you would have a very different view on the guy...IMO

As for championing old tried and tested failures... I really don't know why you bother!! Not matter how well any of them do in the Championship games the fact is their Test records are there for all to see, and when you compare any of them with Ian Bell's short career, he beats them hands down.

Luckily for my sanity, the selectors seem to have got it right, and Bell is in the team and none of the tried and tested failures are even close.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

The 2005 series was his first full series of any note, and he did not play well, but blimey Ern how many 23 year olds in the first major series have!!

I could live with that FF - but what about the Ashes in 2006.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

just seriously one-eyed!! I think Mellons was merely pointing out where you are most blinkered[...]If Bell was born in Manchester and grew up playing for the Red Rose County you would have a very different view on the guy...

How on Earth am I blinkered, England have thee worst one day side in the universe, I did not select Loye, but he did well, I think Chapple would have been a better bet in the World Cup tham Mahmood - Plunkett, or even Anderson, what's wrong with that??.

And as for Bell - when he plays well against Australia, or a team as strong as Australia, then I will change what I think. FF Manchester is not even in Lancashre, I never go near the place.

I am not bothered that much (as you know) about one day cricket, and have not suggested any Lancashire players for the Test side (which matters).

I have strongly advocated:-
Rob key - first and formost
Ed Smith - for the WAT side, and England.
Ramrakash - from your county
Butcher from your county.
Kirtley from Sussex
Crawley - a long time since he played at Lanc's, I am not advocating all these players at once, I just think a couple would help the younger players come on.

And did you see the fuss when I advocated Chris Adams for England captain?.

So lets put to sleep the Lancashre bias I am supposed to have, and whatever Andy was suggesting.

I am a big supporter of Flintoff FF, but that's because of who he is, how he pulled his socks up when needed, nothing to do with Lancashire.

Andy has advocated Foster as keeper, I don't shout Essex bias.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I could live with that FF - but what about the Ashes in 2006.

He was third in the averages, and was probably the most consistent batsman after Pietersen. As you stated nobody played that well, so why only single out Bell?

The facts are there.. Key, Ramprakash, Crawley, Butcher and Adams all have significantly lower Test averages than Bell.

Originally Posted by Ernest

And as for Bell - when he plays well against Australia, or a team as strong as Australia, then I will change what I think.

Name as another team as strong as Australia, and this is my point you won't be able to!! So whoever he comes up against until the Ashes series, even if he scores a stupid amount of runs, you will find fault!!

Originally Posted by Ernest

FF Manchester is not even in Lancashre, I never go near the place.

In the same way that Bristol is not in Gloucestershire, but I live in Bristol 10 mins away from the County Ground!!

But what if he was born in Preston, Burnley or Blackpool? I feel your opinion would be very different

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

But what if he was born in Preston, Burnley or Blackpool? I feel your opinion would be very different

No for political reasons I can't stand Preston (I don't care Flintoff was born there), no matter where he came from - it would be the same.

South Africa against Ntini and Nel would be a good test, or on a regular basis how hie coped with the strange bowling of Malinga.

I look at the team as a whole - hard to believe but Vaughan has not played in a Test match since Pakistan 2005, and he was not in the best of form then.

Flintoff has not batted well with Pietersen, Flintoff has had to bat with Pietersen because of the failure of the top order batsmen including Bell.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

He was third in the averages, and was probably the most consistent batsman after Pietersen.

The fact is that Bell only averaged 33.10 in Australia 2006, Flintoff quite rightly was deemed a great failure, but he averaged 28.22 , just 4.88 behind Ian Bell.

So with Vaughan not having played since 2005, and his form not proven - and with Strauss not in the best of form - and Flintoff needing to come in later (he is a number 6), would England be better off playing a player other than Bell (England need a sticket like Butcher/Thorpe) who's form in Australia was little better than Flintoff's..
To many players will iffy form at the top level, and to make matters worse - Tresco is missing.
With respect FF - this holds good no matter which county he plays for IMO.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

N would England be better off playing a player other than Bell (England need a sticket like Butcher/Thorpe)

But Ern, Bell is a sticker like Thorpe and Butcher (I would say Butch started off as a flamboyant opener and adapted)..

You have written a guy off at just 25, with a Test average of over 40.. you have never come up with a reason why apart from:-

1. He hasn't done it in the Ashes - well neither did a generation of English players throughout the 90's!! Despite the fact that he was of the most consistent batters during the Ashes.
2. You think he has a problem with pace - yet scored a hundred against Pakistan with Akhtar playing (the quickest bowler in the world) http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2...24NOV2005.html

If you can name another sub-30 player with a Test average of over 40, and more than five Test hundreds - who is not in the Test team, and could bat in place of Bell - then I will back you all the way...

[pie_chucker]

Quite correct FF Bell is a "sticker" and IMO at times too much of a "sticker". He lets the bowlers dominate him too much and does not assert himself but he's only 25 and has done more in 20 odd tests than the likes of Ramps did in over twice as many.

Even someone like Butcher who played 70odd tests averages less than 35 with only 8 tons that isnt test quality. To put that into perspective over 70 tests Ian Botham averaged, i think a bit more than that and scored 5-6 more tons (and he took the small matter of nigh on 400 wickets).

Just imagine how frail our batting would be if you stuck Adams, Crawley, Ramps and Adams into it!