New England Vice-Captain?

[Rachael]

What's so often overlooked in all this talk of who could contribute most as captain is what the side loses in terms of other on-field leadership: players who try to lead by example (Stewart, Flintoff) tend to lead by example WITHOUT being captain - you get a stack of leadership from them as senior players even if they are NOT captain... and I reckon you get more from (for example) Vaughan as captain and Flintoff as a second senior figure on the field than you would from Flintoff as captain and Vaughan as a second senior figure on the field.

Having both Strauss AND Collingwood available in addition to Vaughan gives England a healthier potential-captain situation than has existed in a very long time: I really don't see a problem with any of the three as captain... and with Bell and Joyce also looking like potential future captains the management is rather spoilt for choice!

[Ernest]

On your first point Rachael England don't have the senior players lead by example - most are on a learning curve, or to old.

England are IMO not spoiled for choice within the present structure of the team/squad, England are not spoiled for choice even for decent batsmen - that's the problem with Strauss at the moment, to offer him extra pressure would be wrong.

Originally Posted by Rachael

and with Bell and Joyce also looking like potential future captains the management is rather spoilt for choice!

This reminds me of when Atherton had made his debut, within 3 games he was being talked of as a future captain.

Well he did become captain, but he won nothing of note - how can we say that Joyce still wet behind the ears - is captain material?.
As for Bell - he is just better than Strauss, but very erratic.

If Flintoff is going to be excluded for any length of time - then would it not make sense to look in the counties for a captain - when Vaughan breaks down again, and make Collingwood vice captain.

I would say that Collingwood and Flintoff apart - or Trescothick when he gets back, the cupboard is bare as to potential captains.

England are also short of class players - Flintoff lost the Ashes 5-0, with that squad Vaughan IMO would have done the same.

Unless new blood is brought in - the future is bleak for English cricket.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Problem with Strauss is that when Trescothick went home, Strauss went po peices form wise, but if Trescothick comes back - then he (not Strauss) should be made captain.

Ern, I am afriad to say that Trescothick is not mentally equipped even to play in the side let alone Captain in!! Two/Three years ago maybe, but the guy is struggling, if he does get back into the team, would you really want to then burden him with leading it!!

Originally Posted by Ernest

Strange point about Flintoff being sacked as vice captain by Fletcher and Vaughan - it was in the same West Indies in 2004, that Fletcher and Vaughan got rid of Read for G O Jones.

No connection what-so ever, Flintoff was sacked because of his own stupidity, no other reason.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Unless new blood is brought in - the future is bleak for English cricket.

Blimey Ern, what would you call

Bell - 24
Cook - 21
Bopara - 21
Plunkett - 21
Broad - 20
Panesar - 24

All have played for England over the last 12 months!! These are the new blood, but you very rarely give any of them a chance!!

You spent the run up to the Ashes saying that England should bring back Ramps/Butcher, now you are calling for new blood.

Look at the side we have - we have one of the youngest of all the major nations. We may not win this tournament, but the future is not bleak...We probably have the best crop of young players around at the moment, so why are you so miserable!!

Add to that list

Rashid, Compton, Smith (T) and actually the future is far from bleak!

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Blimey Ern, what would you call

Bell - 24
Cook - 21
Bopara - 21
Plunkett - 21
Broad - 20
Panesar - 24

All have played for England over the last 12 months!! These are the new blood, but you very rarely give any of them a chance!!

No I did not mean as player - none of the above would be suitable for captain right now, Broad has not even played a Test match.

I would like to see a new captain brought in from the counties - when Vaughan breaks down - like Adams.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

No I did not mean as player - none of the above would be suitable for captain right now, Broad has not even played a Test match.

I must have misread this then

Originally Posted by Ernest

England are also short of class players - Flintoff lost the Ashes 5-0, with that squad Vaughan IMO would have done the same.

Unless new blood is brought in - the future is bleak for English cricket.

Where you seem to be implying that we are short of talent in the team a whole.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Flintoff was sacked because of his own stupidity, no other reason.

Yes but can a player be fined - sacked and suspended for being stupid.

I have heard on these forums that Flintoff broke a curfew - well that's not true, there is no such thing with Fletcher and England - getting home on time is the players responsiblilty it would seem.click here

Originally Posted by Fletcher

England coach Duncan Fletcher has ruled out imposing a curfew on his World Cup squad to ensure no repeat of Friday's drinking session.

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Right the way from university sides to here, I've done it that way and got their respect," said Fletcher.

Originally Posted by Paul Collingwood

In his BBC Sport column, veteran Paul Collingwood said he did not see the need for a curfew.

Yes even though there is only an imformal agreement on keeping reasoable hours :-

Originally Posted by BBC

Andrew Flintoff was stripped of the vice-captaincy and banned from Sunday's victory over Canada after a late night drinking session.

So what rule did Flintoff break? - there is no 'curfew' - so what is a late night drinking session.

Had there been a 'curfew' - then Flintoff probably would have took heed of it.
Link click here

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Where you seem to be implying that we are short of talent in the team a whole.

By that I mean senior players - to much is expected of players ,like cook - Joyce - broad - Mahmood - plunkett - Tremlett and so on.

Senior players have been missed such as Vaughan Trescothick and Harmison and Jones.

The squad sent to Australia knowing the history of Trescothick and Harmison was the worst selected ever, when Trescothick and Harmison and Vaughan were not available - England did not have the right players to replace them with.
If players are not yet ready - then fair to say the team are short of class, because class comes with performances, not to be confused with potential.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

So what rule did Flintoff break? - there is no 'curfew' - so what is a late night drinking session.

I think you are clutching at straws again Ern, first you tried to deny that Flintoff was ever there or was drunk, now because Freddie has admitted it, you are trying to claim he didn't know that there was a rule!!

He is a professional sportsman, and a senior player, he should know by now that a late night drinking session with several other players, ending up in night club at 4 in the morning, is not the best way to prepare. If he doesn't know that he is even more stupid then I have previously given him credit for!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/c...bram=1&nbram=1

Listen to this Ern, you don't have to read between the lines to see that Freddie was 100% at fault, and is aware of it...

[Andy Mellon]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Compare Flintoff to Gooch - Flintoff did not desert his country for cash.

Very different situation, Ern. The power of the Rand when compared with the money modern cricketers earn would be very different to the situation in the 80s when the money earned by even top test cricketers was a pittance in comparison, without all the advertising deals and things.

Who is to say whether or not Flintoff would have toured South Africa in the same situation. Unfair comparison, and entirely irrelevant.