Who will be dropped for the first test of the summer?

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

I can't think who would fill the missing batsman spot - Ramp's maybe.

Blimey Ern - how about Bell, who you just dismissed - despite the fact that he was our third highest run scorer (and would have been second if you exclude Collingwoods one big innings)

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/20..._TEST_AVS.html

After Pietersen, he was our only consistent Batsman, and yet you would drop him!!

As for Trescothick, you keep saying he was unfit. But he was not, he is not and probably won't be, mentally up to Test cricket, he is perfectly fit to play, but he is not, at this stage, mentally able.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

how about Bell, who you just dismissed - despite the fact that he was our third highest run scorer (and would have been second if you exclude Collingwoods one big innings)

Yep Collingwood's average was inflated by one big innings, and to be honest I am not convinced Collinwood is a Test batsman - hence I said he deserves a longer trial.

I have not dismissed Bell for all time, I would be more than happy to see Bell go to India Pakistan for instance.

Even from your link Bell only had an average of 33.10 , just about 4 runs more than Flintoff.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

After Pietersen, he was our only consistent Batsman, and yet you would drop him!!

Again FF - I still state that he only had an average of 33.10, and I agree he really was second to Pietersen, but he failed against Australia in England also.

With Vaughan out of form, and match practice (which he is in all forms of cricket) - the middle order needs a decent start which IMO means England can't play Collingwood and Bell.

Originally Posted by flanflinger

As for Trescothick, you keep saying he was unfit. But he was not, he is not and probably won't be, mentally up to Test cricket, he is perfectly fit to play, but he is not, at this stage, mentally able.

Well I agree - when I say unfit, I mean not fit to play.

But the selectors knew this before he was selected, they knew Harmison got homesick - that put a lot of pressure on England's younger players, and Bell also for that matter - he was in effect an opener at times.

If you are saying Bell deserves another chance on the basis that his average should have been better than Collingwood because of the latters inflated average, then Collinwood would have to go.

But Bell has got to prove he can play against players the pace off Lee and Tait on a regular basis.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by flanflinger 137030

The fact remains we are still no 2 in the World at Test Cricket, and the team we play next are at the bottom end

Well said FF, we are and apart from the Aussies we should beat anyone else. With Warne and McGrath now i would fancy us to give the Aussies a good game.

If the weather is kind the management should be disapointed if we dont win every test this summer.

Originally Posted by Ernest 137039

I can't think who would fill the missing batsman spot - Ramp's maybe.

Ramps will never play for England again, he's even admitted that himself. He's played a shedload of tests and showed he wasnt up to it mentally. Picking Ramps would also be a massive backward step. We should either go with what we have or go for a youngster.

Why would we drop a guy who averages over 40 for someone who averages mid 20's.

If a batsman has to go I would reckon it would be Colly who would get the chop. Bell would be retained due to his percieved class.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

If a batsman has to go I would reckon it would be Colly who would get the chop.[...] Bell would be retained due to his percieved class.

England without Trescothick are not IMO as good a Test team as they were in 2005.

What has bell done in his matches against top teams like Australia?, not a lot.

A lot has been made of Flintoffs poor batting form, yet Bell (a specialist batsman) managed an average of only just over 4 more than Flintoff in the 2006 Ashes, and was poor in the 2005 Ashes, his best form has been against subcontinental teams I believe.

IMO you are right on one point "perceived class".

As for Colly - well who would you replace him with?.

With Vaughan and Strauss not in good form - is Bell good enough to be in effect an opening batsman?.

[pie_chucker]

Colly will be replaced by Vaughan, I'm not saying I'm completely happy with that but barring injury Vaughan will play (and captain) this summer.

The top 6 will more than likely be:

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Flintoff.

(note: I'm not saying that this is my personal choice but the top 6 we will probably field).

Ern, I agree that we are significantly weaker without Tres up top. I think you are right in that he allows Strauss to play his natural game and usually gives our innings momentum from the off - something we never managed during the last ashes anillhilation.

Edit: I think Bell will do OK against the touring teams this summer, thats why he'll get picked.

[Younis Khan #1]

How can you be so sure Collingwood will be dropped?

[cantplaycantalk]

Drop Colly, after a double century in the only match we nearly held out in plus being the only batsman the Aussies struggled to get out in the second innings of that match. OK so he then went through a lean spell which he came out of with two back to back match winning centuries in the one dayers.

I would rather have more Paul Collingwoods in the England side if it were possible, Englands best fielder, a usefull fill in bowler, a consumate professional and a batsman averaging over 40.
If you want to discount his double century then equally discount his lowest score from the ashes and you come out with an average of approximately 30 which puts him only marginally behind Bell who if you apply the same criteria drops back to 32. And under the same criteria Strauss averaged around the mid 20's and Vaughan just scraped to 20 in his last 5 Ashes Tests.

So even on the "massaged" figures Collingwood is still markedly better than Strauss and a dramatically better than Vaughan. I would conclude that a decision to drop Collingwood in favour of Either Strauss or Vaughan can not be based on cricketing criteria.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Ernest

What has bell done in his matches against top teams like Australia?, not a lot.

How about an average of 93.75 against Pakistan last season, who at the time we played them were officially number 2 in the world, and even now are number 3 in the world!!

Basically, in Test Cricket we have a team that can take on anyone, apart from Australia. To panic and change the whole team is ridiculous and stupid. My preference is to play a guy like Bell, (and a just 25 this is possible) and get him to become better. Pick Ramps (and as a Surrey fan I love Ramps) and you get a guy who probably will do very well against the West Indies, but will he still be playing in 2009 when the next Ashes happens???

The best way to go, if we are going to change, is Youth, get guys like Compton, Broad and Davies in the team against a weaker nation (which sadly the West Indies are) and get them ready to play in 2009 against the touring Aussies.

[cantplaycantalk]

We can take on Australia as well, we just need to go into the series with a full team who have had a reasonable amount of cricket and are in some sort of nick. Vs Aus we had Freddy just returned from a serious ankle injury, Harmison in no sort of form and also just fit, Simon Jones (probably our best bowler) out injured and some nitwit picking Giles (just returned from a serious hip problem) ahead of Monty. So only one fully fit and firing bowler, we Also had Strauss who really was not in form either and we were facing the best spin bowler in the world backed up by an excellent seam attack with McGrath, Clark, Lee all at the top of their games.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Basically, in Test Cricket we have a team that can take on anyone,....

Exactly, thats why there wont be any changes in selection with the excwption of Bell, Colly, Strauss or Cook getting dropped to accomodate Vaughan, unless we play 4 bowlers.

Colly is the favourite to get dropped because as I've said earlier Bell is percieved to be the classier batsman and personally I think that Colly (and Bell for that matter) need to be more dynamic in their approach to batting.

Thinking about the Aussies, with no McGrath, Warne and Langer I dont think that we are too far away, especially if we can field our strongest team.