Who will be dropped for the first test of the summer?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

How about an average of 93.75 against Pakistan last season[...]Basically, in Test Cricket we have a team that can take on anyone, apart from Australia. To panic and change the whole team is ridiculous and stupid.

Well Flintoff had an average in the 50's while captaining England to a drawn series IN India, and winning a game, and Pakistan had a troubled side in 2006, so I would not read to much into that series.
But both Bell and Flintoff were horrible in Ashes 2006, only for his bowling on present form - Flintoff would not be sure of a place.
Also remember Bell was that poor he was dropped from the England side against Pakistan in 2005, and only got his place back via Vaughan being injured.
I can't myself see any reason why Colly or Bell could not make way for Ramp's, he could still make the Ashes in 2009.

I am not for changing the whole side, just fine tuning - the same people that are advocating no change - by and large want to see the back of a potential match winner in Mahmood.

PS: Why I have nominated Ramp's - is because he is class, and also is very experienced, and would be hungry to prove his knockers wrong.

I would rather Colly stay, but either he or Bell should make way for an experienced player, or the team will be to raw IMO.

[cantplaycantalk]

By and large yesterdays demolition of South Africa by Australia underlines that England are not that far away from being a very good side.

The problem right now is that the openers are not in form and don't look comfortable in the one day format, combined with the lack of experience of the bowlers.
To me Mahmood has a lot of promise, but I am not yet convinced. He takes wickets but has a tendency to fall apart if the batsmen attack him. I think he needs more experience, as do Broad, Panesar and Plunkett. Anderson is nearly there as a ODI bowler and Flintoff is of course a class act with the ball in ODI's. We are missing Simon Jones and once he returns it will give the attack much more stability. We will have Jones and Flintoff to bowl at the death and we can then afford to have a couple of the talented youngsters playing to gain the experience.
Who those youngsters will be is open for question as I would say that Plunkett has shown every bit as much promise as Mahmood and can bat as well, while Broad is potentially the most gifted young pace bowler England have had in a very long time, and Adil Rashid is not only taking wickets for fun in the County Championship he is also an accomplished batsman.
For these reasons my England side for ODI's once Jones is fit would be

Vaughan * (Not that I would let Vaughan within a mile of the ODI squad if it was even vaguely likely he would be dropped.)
Mustard + (bats at 2 for Durham in one dayers and is a good bat and destructive batsman.)
Bell
Peiterson
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Rashid
Broad
Plunkett
Jones or Anderson/Mahmood if Jones not fit
Anderson/Mahmood/Panesar depending on conditions
So Vaughan, Mustard, Bell, Peiterson, Collingwood, Bopara, Flintoff,Rashid,Broad,Plunkett,Jones,Mahmood as first choice. Good balance bats a long way down and some talented bowlers.

[flanflinger]

One thing I noticed about the World Cup "Disaster" was that we were only beaten by the four teams that ended up in the semi final, and came very close to beating one finalist - Sri Lanka (and but for one missed counted over could have won that one!!)

I don't think we are that far off being a very good ODI team, and if you look at the average age of our squad, we were by far the youngest of all the major Test nations. Perhaps the World Cup came too early for us.

As for replacing Bell with Ramps, madness, a seriously backward step. On present form Ramps will score a ton of runs against a frankly average West Indies team, who will that actually benefit and can you be sure he will be around for the Ashes, will he be in the same form??

Ern, we got beaten by the best team in the world, one that would probably have beaten any team that turned up on their shores, our thoughts should not be panic - need to change team quickly and go backwards, but how do we best prepare for 2009 (which is exactly what the Aussies did after the 05 Ashes)? Picking players like Ramps, Crawley and Adams (who have done frankly Bugger all when given past opportunities)is madness, what we need are players in their early twenties who we can get into the team to make the team better in the future, and look at those in the current team how can we encourage and improve.

Answer this question, after the 2005 Ashes - what did the Australians do? They re-grouped, only two players lost their place long term - Katich and Gillespie (Martyn left of his own accord) - they brought in Hussey, Symonds and Clark, but apart from that what changes did they make? They didn't change their team, they changed their attitude, got hungry and came back.

This is what we need to do, keep Bell, Cook, Panesar, Harmison and Flintoff. Get Jones fit and come back at them with renewed vigour.

[Notts Exile]

The last thing we should do is panic. Wholesale changes are not needed. The ODI side is a worry but more from a tactical point of view than anything else.

I would like to pick up on a couple of things: Rashid doesn't seem to plat limited overs cricket for Yorkshire - they are protecting him from that side of the game. Therefore it is madness to suggest he be anywhere near the England ODI team. Also, why is Simon Jones seen as some sort of saviour in the ODI game? He is another who has played little limited overs cricket and therefore has no real pedigree in that form of the game.

Bell is a quality batsman, he proved against the Aussies that he is capable of playing is shots and going over the top. He should be a part of the batting line up under Moores and will thrive if the plans are right. Some are suggesting Alastair Cook plays ODI cricket, again he rarely plays the limited overs game for Essex.

There is a case for the likes of Benning and Pettini to be given a go (and being biased Samit Patel from Notts) as their game is well suited to the limited overs. It's more difficult to find the bowlers who tick all of the boxes. Fletcher was obsessed by pace and the likes of Jon Lewis, Sidebottom, Bicknell all suffered because of this. I ask the question: how well did England's pace bowlers do in the Caribbean? Would Lewis and Sidebottom have faired any worse? Look at Charl Langevelt, he did OK. Knowing where you are goping to put the ball is more important than the speed at which you bowl it. Goughie would have been an improvement on Plunkett and Mahmood. Just as Nixon was a good selection, on a horses for courses basis so would Gough, Lewis or Sidebottom have been.

Getting back on track, the Test side doesn't need too many changes. The batsmen from the Ashes series are our best batsmen, and they will succeed against a poor Windies side. The Hoggster picks himself and Harmison seems to be in good form for Durham. Monty will play. So do you select Plunkett or Mahmood? Again, both would do ok as the Windies batting isn't exactly wonderful.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Ern, we got beaten by the best team in the world, one that would probably have beaten any team that turned up on their shores, our thoughts should not be panic - ..........

This is what we need to do, keep Bell, Cook, Panesar, Harmison and Flintoff. Get Jones fit and come back at them with renewed vigour.

Top post FF.

I've been wondering why there is a clamour on here to change our test team, its comfortably no.2 in the world and if we field our full strength team, we have a very, very good chance of retaking the Ashes.

As for the ODI team, we have 4 years to the next world cup. We should start building for that now and pick players who are liable to be around in 4 years time.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

I've been wondering why there is a clamour on here to change our test team, its comfortably no.2 in the world and if we field our full strength team, we have a very, very good chance of retaking the Ashes.

The problem with the Test team remains lack of depth on the slow-bowling front: Panesar is OK.. but most Test pitches in World cricket would warrant a second spinner alongside Panesar if a good enough one were available.... and with Giles already injured... an injury to Panesar could leave England with NO frontline spinner!

[pie_chucker]

Thats is our one true weakness, although several other teams also suffer from this. IMO the worry is if Pansear loses form or gets injured, the likes of Rashid or Lawson may get promoted too quick, I feelthat they are 2-3 years away from the test team.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

Thats is our one true weakness,

I don't agree p-c, one England spinner is more than enough - I am on record several times as saying off-spin is dead in England, and England don't have the coaches to produce class wrist spinners, sad but IMHO it's a fact.

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

I've been wondering why there is a clamour on here to change our test team, its comfortably no.2 in the world and if we field our full strength team, we have a very, very good chance of retaking the Ashes.

Again I am on record several times (even in 2004) in saying that England don't have any depth to their batting, and this was shown to be correct with England being hammered in 2006 by Australia.

Flintoff got a lot of the blame because he was supposed to have mishandled Panesar, well in the great scheme of the 2006 Ashes, that did not make a jot of difference.
The fact was the batting was rubblish without Trescothick, Strauss went to pieces without Trescothick to open with, the same Strauss was being clamoured for to be made captain while scoring no runs.
England's bowling is passible, should have won in Multan only for the batting collapsing, and again the bowlers were Ok in the second Test (I think) putting England into a good possition, only for the batting to blow it yet again.

I will take some convincing that England at the present time, without Trescothick and Simon Jones are near being second in the World, IMO that's an illusion brought about by the Ashes Triumph of 2005.

Hey I am an optimist - I forecast with belief that England would win in 2005, I also warned that it would not happen if a major batsman was injured, because I believed then, and I believe now that England don't have enough strength of depth to their batting, to play with the big boys.

Vaughan - out of form
Strauss - out of form
This is what left England short in the World Cup, but then we had Bell and Collingwood in Australia who were just OK, and Flintoff out of form with the bat.

No need for major changes - if Trescothick is fit to come back, if England play an experienced batsman if not, if Harmison is back on form, then England will enjoy a good summer, England are sooner of later have to find a reliable substitute for Trescothick.

But IMO there is an underlying problem with the batting.

[Oliver]

Only just spotted this thread; but it has to be said that the best looking XI for the first Test is:

Trescothick (let's just hope he's up to it)
Cook
Strauss
Pietersen
Vaughan
Bell
Flintoff
[A keeper]
Panesar
Harmison
Hoggard

At last a solid looking top six.

Thank goodness for that.

Now let's just hope that Harmison can bowl well. I mean it is the West Indies afterall. Everyone should fire on all cylinders for that. It's barely going to be a tough battle.

Centuries all round. And a whole bunch of five-fers for the bowlers.

Yup, it would be nice to see Jones the knee come back too. And if Vaughan still can't cut it the new coach can drop him for Strauss (to take over as skipper) and bring in one of those all-rounders champing at the bit like (oh god alright then) Collingwood or preferably Bopara or Shah.

And I suppose we might see a good bit of Stuart Broad this summer. Mmmm quite looking forward to that.

Looking forward to the summer as a whole really.

Can't wait.

Marvellous.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ernest

IMO there is an underlying problem with the batting.

The only problem with the batting is that Flintoff bats at 6, unbalancing the side. England have at least eight batsmen of acceptable international quality...

Tresco
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Joyce

On the seam bowling front, things look equally satisfactory:

Hoggard
Harmison
S. Jones
Anderson
Flintoff
Plunkett

On the wicket-keeping front the situation is also satisfactory:

Read
Foster
Davies

On the slow bowling front things look less rosy...

Panesar
Giles