Who will be dropped for the first test of the summer?

[Ernest]

Very similar to the side that got thrashed in Australia Oliver.

The only difference is Vaughan for Collinwood, I wonder if players like Cook and Joyce are scarred after that 5-0 walloping?.

[darksideofthemoon]

If we are picking a third fast bowler I wish it would be Broad. I love watching him bowl. It would be ideal for him to have a couple of Tests until Simon Jones is ready. If not Broad then it would have to be Plunkett. Mahmood needs to spend a couple of seasons bowling in county cricket.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Very similar to the side that got thrashed in Australia Oliver.

The only difference is Vaughan for Collinwood, I wonder if players like Cook and Joyce are scarred after that 5-0 walloping?.

Cook didn't really do anything wrong in Australia. He played pretty well actually and Joyce didn't actually play in the Tests at all.

But Ernest, this is the West Indies we're talking about it. They are decidedly NOT Australia, their attack is weak and their batting will have been considerably weakened by the loss of the enigmatic Lara.

It is possible however, that their team spirit will have risen immeasurably.

Yes, there is no doubt that Vaughan has been an inspirational captain, and he should play in Tests if he is up to it.

I imagine that Cook only took good things from his Ashes experience, and to play in a solid top six - I mean really Collingwood and Flintoff are not that solid - and yes, as I said it is the West Indies and everyone should be scoring double centuries against them... though they won't.

And just because it's the West Indies that's not a reason to leave those thirty year-olds in the side so that they can make some easy runs. Especially when you do need to develop the youngsters for the challenges ahead.

So keep Vaughan at 32. He is the Test skipper and he should be allowed to find his form - if he can.
Keep Trescothick also 32 (?) If he is up to it, he is a destructive opener and probably one of our two best batsmen.

Keep Strauss 29 (?) surely the captain in waiting, and Bell, Cook and Pietersen are all spring chickens.

Collingwood is a fantastic fielder, and perhaps should always be twelfth man, if only to irritate the hell out of Australian captains. But if the selectors leave him in the Test side to make cheap runs against a team heading horridly toward something like Zimbabwe-esque anonymity, then there is something rotten in the state of St. John's Wood.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Racahel

The only problem with the batting is that Flintoff bats at 6, unbalancing the side. England have at least eight batsmen of acceptable international quality.

Well Flintoff started 2006 with and average in India in the 50's, then was injured after Sri Lanka and was only four points behind Bell (the specialist bat in Australia), despite having played no cricket for months.
He never got to bat at 6 in Australia, the top order made sure he was really batting 3 or 4, so how England woes can be blamed on Flintoff unbalancing the side is beyond me.
You say Flintoff was the "ONLY" problem.

When did Vaughan last have a prolonged run of good form?, he was England weakest link for months.

Strauss contributed nothing in Australia, Bell just slightly more than Flintoff.

Flintoff was of form bating in Australia, then he is not a specialist batsman, what was the top order specialist batting excuse.

Originally Posted by Rachael

On the seam bowling front, things look equally satisfactory:

Well Rachael I agree they look better than the batting, but what if Harmison does not perform, in fact when did Harmison last bowl with real conviction?.

Plunkett IMO is no better than Mahmood, both get carted - and both get wickets.

Hoggard - Flintoff - Simon Jones (if fit are England best bowlers), Harmison is #1 on form.

Yes I agree - England are weak on the spin front, Panesar is England's only hope.

If you think Rachael that moving Flintoff from six will cure England's ills, then I don't know how you arrive at that - the lower middle order is the least of England's batting worries IMO.

[Oliver]

What will you do, when Flintoff retires?

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Cook didn't really do anything wrong in Australia. He played pretty well actually and[...] Joyce didn't actually play in the Tests at all.

No I am not blaming Cook Oliver - he did everything asked of him, and although Joyce did not play in the Tests, he was part of the ailing England set up.

By being "scarred" - I mean the horrible England set up experience they have been though.

Originally Posted by Oliver

But Ernest, this is the West Indies we're talking about it. They are decidedly NOT Australia, their attack is weak and their batting will have been considerably weakened by the loss of the enigmatic Lara

That is true Oliver - but I am looking beyond this summer to 2009, and I don't see England becoming a force again with Vaughan - Collingwood and Bell in the top five.

Originally Posted by Oliver

It is possible however, that their team spirit will have risen immeasurably.[...]I imagine that Cook only took good things from his Ashes experience,

Well I can't see one reason why the team spirit will have risen, it probably will if they beat the West Indies, but like you say "this is the West Indies we're talking about it" - not Australia or South Africa.
I think Cook will have got a lot of personal satisfaction from his tour to OZ, that's different than being part of of a winning side.

If Trescothick is fit - if Harmison is at his best - if Flintoff finds his batting form, and Simon Jones gets back into the England side, then my optimism will rise also.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Oliver

What will you do, when Flintoff retires?

Nothing! - England will then be one more bowler short.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Collingwood is a fantastic fielder, and perhaps should always be twelfth man, if only to irritate the hell out of Australian captains. But if the selectors leave him in the Test side to make cheap runs against a team heading horridly toward something like Zimbabwe-esque anonymity, then there is something rotten in the state of St. John's Wood.

He should play.. but only at 6. I don't see him as a rival to Cook, Strauss, Bell, Pietersen, Vaughan or Joyce as specialist batsmen for a top 5 spot... but he's quite clearly a cut above Flintoff as a No 6 bat... and his bowling is now what a 5th bowler's bowling should be - sufficient.

I'd actually like to see Flintoff told to sit out the entire WI season and go get his head straight with his colleagues at Lancashire (well away from the media frenzy). I assume he'd then come straight back into the side and go touring in the winter... but a couple of months of comparative R&R at county level would not hurt.

I'd offer the same deal to Strauss: skip one series on the understanding that there's a place waiting for the following series. That would allow the following line-up:

Vaughan*
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Joyce
Collingwood
Read / Foster
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
S. Jones / Anderson

That side should beat the WI.

[Quagmire]

I think that dropping Flintoff for a tour and giving him a rest would be good for him and for the English side.

[Collyisamackem]

Originally Posted by Rachael

That side should beat the WI.

Tony Blair couldn't, so why should Michael Vaughan?

Quagmire is also right, Flintoff is running on flat and needs about 3 months with no cricket whatsoever to recharge himself, that is at least 3 months for me. The guy is no good to the team as is, and no matter what Ern says he failed to perform in Australia and the West Indies because of that as well as his unprofessional behaviour. Flintoff's game and the state he is in now has no relation to Alistair Cook, Andrew Strauss, Ian Bell, Marcus Trescothick, Michael Vaughan or anyone else in the team. He just needs a rest and to watch his lifestyle for a while.

[flanflinger]

Originally Posted by Oliver

What will you do, when Flintoff retires?

Good question, Ern's post count will drop dramatically, but there is always Mahmood!!

For me you have to pick talent and run with it, picking players on short term form doesn't work (generally what happens is a player has a great season, there is a clamour to pick him, and by the time he gets picked he has just had a run of low scores!!)

The problem with this debate is that we are the Number two Test team, I doubt that the West Indies will give us as many problems as Australia, I can't see us struggling in the same way as we did in the Ashes.

The team does not need a major re-think, just some minor adjustments...

The team for me

Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Davies (very unlikely thanks to that idiot Graveney - Prior and Nixon what a joke)
Hoggard
Harmison/Jones
Panesar