Panesar

[Rachael]

To be fair... it's surely a little early to pass that judgement: he's a lot to learn to start getting compared with the very best... but his prime is still 7-14 years away so he's certainly got time on his side.

On a side note... bowling in the modern era, faced with covered wickets, short boundaries and these ridiculous modern bats... one also has to acknowledge that Panesar's lack of flight, drift, dip and variation might actually be far less significant than in would in the (say) the 1960s - Warne's shown that you CAN be a genuine slow bowler on modern pitches... but Murali surely shows (pretty consistently) the merits (in today's game) of bowling spin flatter and at nearer slow-medium pace (as Panesar does).

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Rachael

...one also has to acknowledge that Panesar's lack of flight, drift, dip and variation might ......

I have to take issue with some of that statement;Panesar gets plenty of drift and gets the ball to dip a bit too.

I agree at times he does bowl a bit quick. The modern way to bowl finger spin seems to be to either chuck it or bowl a bit quicker (some do both).

For a guy thats a fair bit from his prime he's not done badly so far......

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

I have to take issue with some of that statement;Panesar gets plenty of drift and gets the ball to dip a bit too

I guess everything's relative: the action certainly encourages drift and dip.. but the pace on the delivery limits the scope for either. Slowing down by 10mph and tossing the ball up correspondingly higher would massively increase the effect of attempts at drift and dip!

Not that I'm worried about either right now: the kid is still (for a slow bowler) in nappies: I'd be quite happy for him to spend the next two years just perfecting the stock ball he currently uses!

[Richie Benauds Love Child]

Originally Posted by Milo

You are kidding me aren't you?? Panesar really has no hope of being anywhere near as good as Underwood, Lock and Verity (just the lefthanders).

Actually I'm not kidding. I'd love to see any of the above play their first 17 tests on covered pitches and see how they did. I'd alos like to see how Monty would do on uncovered pitches, again taking in only 17 tests (including against india in india). Maybe I'm getting carried away but as england hasnt produced a spinner that either take wickets on most pitches and contain/bowl lots of overs for the better part of 25 years I'm entitled to !

[flanflinger]

Quite right RBLC...

Deadly Derek was a very happy man indeed when the rain came down, drenched the pitch and allowed his form of brisk cutters to devastate batting attacks.

All those bowlers mentioned enjoyed uncovered pitches which brought a spinner into a game, much more than they do now. Even an ordinary spinner could get help from an uncovered pitch!! Today with covered pitches the Mystery spinner has been sought after, big leg break bowlers like Warne or MacGill, Googly bowlers like Quadir or Kaneria, wristy off-spinners like Murali or doorsa bolwers like Saqulain or Habarjan and Kumble's fast leg breaks, have been able to take wickets on flat lifeless pitches.

Yes, today you do have some orthodox spinners, but Monty is taking wickets at a much higher rate than all of them, without the same help from the pitch as the old English spinner used to rely upon.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by flanflinger

Deadly Derek was a very happy man indeed when the rain came down, drenched the pitch and allowed his form of brisk cutters to devastate batting attacks.

Underwood could play on any pitch - he did not a rain affected pitch to be at his very best.

He could bowl medium pace, but also he was a Slow left-arm orthodox bowler who was a captains dream, who if not taking wickets, would tie a batsman down.

He ended his career with an econ rate of 2.10, and a strike rate of 73.60 excellent figures for a slow bowler.

Also he only took 86 tests to take his 297 wickets, a remarkable player.

                      Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St

unfiltered            86   937  45*  11.56   0   0 297  8/51   25.83 17  44  0
filtered              29   371  45*  12.79   0   0 105  7/50   26.38  4  14  0

The filtered stats were Underwood's record against Australia.

Panesar is the best prospect England have had since Underwood - but he has a lond way to go before he can be said to be as good as Underwood.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

Maybe I'm getting carried away but as england hasnt produced a spinner that either take wickets on most pitches and contain/bowl lots of overs for the better part of 25 years

You are perhaps forgetting Tufnell: surely Panesar's match in terms of talent... with remarkable mastery of flight, drift and dip and a very strong record in terms of offering control and economy.

[pie_chucker]

Tufnell had great control of loop and spin, but he wasnt strong mentally and as soon as the batsman went after him his head dropped and he wasnt half as good a bowler.

[Rachael]

Tufnell's career economy rate was 2.42. IN 42 Tests he only went at more than 2.57 an over 8 times! He only went at more than 3.5 an over once in his entire career. In an era when spinners were generally being asked to simply block up an end... he was remarkably effective (for such a slow bowler) at bowling to the plan.

In an era of uncovered wickets... Tuffers would probably have eclipsed Panesar through greater mastery of flight. Bowling on covered wickets, Panesar's speared-in darts are perhaps more appropriate: he is surely the more "modern" bowler.

Tuffers shouldn't be overlooked though: he was impressive.

[Milo]

Originally Posted by Richie Benauds Love Child

Actually I'm not kidding. I'd love to see any of the above play their first 17 tests on covered pitches and see how they did. I'd alos like to see how Monty would do on uncovered pitches, again taking in only 17 tests (including against india in india). Maybe I'm getting carried away but as england hasnt produced a spinner that either take wickets on most pitches and contain/bowl lots of overs for the better part of 25 years I'm entitled to !

I admit that Panesar is pretty handy (very handy actually) to have bowling on most English pitches on a fifth day, but he has done very little away from home to warrant any real excitement yet. Underwood actually over half his test wickets away from England. Let's wait till Panesar's had a few tough tours and see whether he can regularly take first innings wickets on these. I know he took five in the Australia innings, but so far we really need to see whether that was the norm. So far, Panesar's career is far more reliant on home wickets than any of the other great English spinners - and if you do compare the start to his career with Underwood's there really is no comparison (67 wickets at 16 by the age of 22, and 100 wickets in 23 tests).

We'll wait and see. I remember many on this board telling us how Harmison was going to be the best bowler England had ever produced since Trueman.